Former NFU dairy chair Michael Oakes switches from dairy to beef after a clear TB test and worries over succession, losing FBT land and a recent health scare

After 40 years, West Midlands dairy farmer and former NFU dairy board chair Michael Oakes decided to quit milking, sold his 200 holstein dairy herd and started a new venture rearing 200 plus beef cattle on his Bournville Village Trust tenant farm on the southern outskirts of Birmingham. A decision which he described as ‘really tough' and initially something he was reluctant to share with anyone else, over concerns people would think he had 'failed'.  

Mr Oakes said there was not one single factor which led to his decision to quit, but a combination of factors including going clear of TB after being shut down for many years, the lack of succession with both his two sons pursuing other careers, a health scare after having a mini stroke, and his landlord wanting to take FBT land back in hand. He has since started a new venture, looking after 200 plus beef herd, which he will take to finish as part of a bed and breakfast scheme run by Buitelaar. He said, he still found it 'difficult' not milking every morning, but it was easier now there was cattle back on the farm.

Transcript

Hello and welcome back to the Farmers Guardian podcast. My name is Rachael Brown, and in this week's episode, I caught up with former NFU dairy chair Michael Oakes to find out more about his decision to leave the dairy sector, the factors involved, and how difficult it was for him to sell his head. We talk about how he's adjusting to life away from dairy, looking after  plus beef cattle.
It really is an open and honest discussion about how difficult it was and still is, for Michael to adjust to life away from dairy. After  plus years of milking his cows, we also discuss labor, an ongoing issue for the sector, forcing many farmers to reduce their head size or leave altogether as one of the key to making dairy contract legislation work for the sector and the opportunities he sees in dairy going forward.
What is a critical point in time for the industry, with looming demands for on farm investment?

Michael, can you explain to
me the reasons behind making that transition from dairy into beef? There wasn't one reason. There was, a combination of quite a few.
We had been shut down with TV for a few years, and, suddenly we weren't clear. I'm , and I don't look it for. I'm .
And no succession of the two grown up sons are both great careers of their own. But no intention at all coming back to the farm with tenants, the landlord. Half the farms off is empty. They want the their land back and made it very clear. That would mean we'd have to change the business substantially, because most of the young staff used to sort of graze a lot of empty land.
And when we do maze on it and forage as well.
And then I also didn't even realize this, but, I, stopped working at some point in February, and it was really difficult even putting units on cows and wiping cows and doing all the things you do every day as a milking cows. And in the end, I ended up in, the hospital in Birmingham, and they told me I had a mini stroke.
So I thought, well, I don't want a big one. And like you. So just go and create a GP. The issues with, losing some of the land and just thought, well, if I don't take the opportunity now, whilst with clarity, be,
then actually, you know, worst case scenario, you could be shut down for years again in six months time and,
then it's out of your hands, isn't it?
And, and I didn't know if my arm was going to get better. It has. Luckily, it seems to work. Okay. Now,
and so it was a really, really difficult decision to make. Yeah. And also, you did get tired of juggling the bills. You know, it's not, you know, we have periods of actually, there's a margin.
And, unfortunately, this job is a struggle. Yeah. And we've all been there and lots of farmers I speak to have been there, and it's just, you know, you get tired of that. You get tired of waking up in the night wondering, how are you going to pay the bills? Yeah.
So. Yeah. So and it was, it was keeping me awake at night on occasions, you know, and,
and it probably was not helping me drinking and probably drinking too much red wine instead, sort of, you get in at night and quite easily drink a bottle of red wine just because actually, that's how you wound down.
And then you get up the next day and do the same again. And so there was yeah, it was a really tough decision. It was really tough. I didn't really speak to anybody about it. Yeah. Because you don't want to have the conversation. Almost. Why do you think that is so, is that for you to kind of come to terms?
Yeah. It's difficult to get you your own head around it. That actually is probably the best thing to do. Yeah. But you just love the cows, you know, and your whole life have been structured around, you know, dairy farming is very structured, actually, you know, and now, you know, I wake up in the morning if I don't
want to get up, and I didn't actually, I don't actually have to because I won't have, you know, a shed for the cows and expecting to be milked, and scraped and cleaned and everything else.
So which I guess in itself was so hard initially to adjust to. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, it still is now because that structure to your day has disappeared. You know, so losing that structure is probably one of the biggest things I'm struggling to get my head around because, you know, : in the morning, I would be up.
I'd be here at :. And, you know, then I would go off and do NFU stuff if that was happening. But I'd always be back. And, you know, sadly, some days I'd be always here.
And that's disappeared. And you think that might be quite nice, but you're doing it for so many, what,  plus? Yeah, yeah. Your body kind of is attuned to that, into that.
And also when you haven't got the discipline of having to do it and you could get very lazy very quickly, I'm sure I'll put weight on. So I'm not walking up down the parliament putting units on cows. But
yeah. So that, that, that sort of discipline disappears. So you've got to find something else to replace, replace, you know, as you've seen, we've got to, beef cattle in though, which you're going to take to finish because that means TV won't be an issue.
Yeah. If we were unlucky enough to go down again,
I would have loved to have, sort of reared dairy heifers, because that's what I love. And and so those and, you know, I'm going to jump start but, you know, bringing somebody else's here on bed and breakfast potentially they could have got stuck here because of TB.
You know, rearing the calves, dairy calves that you bull. You know, I would have loved to have done it, but it just wasn't practical. Yeah. Where we are with the amount of TB in the area, it sounds like there was so many factors at play, wasn't it? But it was just finding that right time and it kind of presented itself to you.
Would you say just all those factors that you. It was the sort of slight health scare. Yeah. It was like, well, actually I don't want a big stroke. And to be sitting in the corner with somebody having to look after me. Yeah. You know, but for me, that was, you know, I don't think anybody would, find that, a positive thing.
So, I mean, you know, my my parents are still around. They're not involved with the farm anymore, but, you know, and then I had to pick up the phone to them, you know, by the way, a book to sail, you know, through its time on a month's time or whatever. And they were great because they were going.
Well, we've been wondering why you've been carrying on doing it for as long as you have in there. And he wouldn't have said that  years ago, because, you know, he drove the business at that point. But ultimately it was you, Michael, that had to make that decision. Oh, yeah, you do. And then then you've got the people that work for you as well.
You potentially think, well, you know, as much as, you know, labor is an issue,
you still don't want to let those people down. They've got families to look after, like they've got mortgages to pay. Yeah.
So all of those things are quite negative. Yeah. You know, I remember, you know, once I booked a sale going down the yard into the workshop and, you know, saying, by the way, that like, how's it going and whatever.
Yeah. You know, and that wasn't easy because you don't. And then, you know, probably the worst day was when I had the farm's guardian and there's the advert for the sale, you know, because.
I can't go back now. There was, there was that bit of that. Yeah. Reality. And I've got have a neighbor that's recently selling their cows and, you know, I told him how I felt and he was exactly the same, you know, when that advert in the press and then then people, you know, stopping in, you know, probably selling your carriage to that point, you've got to have that same conversation with and it's repeating, which can be exhausting.
So repeating that conversation. So yeah. So it was tough and it it's still tough. It's easier now we've got cattle back on the farm is you know, it was a really nice day when  cattle came on. Yeah. You know that came off to tell us that Tuesday lorries. I was like great, we've got some animals back.
You can get the fade away. Get back out. You can, you can start getting some some coming in routine. Yeah.
And then I've been doing other bits and pieces that I've been wanting to be done for years and never had the time. So, you know, like I said, we've developed some bonds and, you know, I'm not into landscape gardening, but a lot of it is lovely.
Because actually I've got the time to do it. So I've had somebody else,
take me back to the day of the sale and, and just how you felt and I guess just
how you found the whole process of it all, because, you know, it's been such a big part of your life. Well, you know, we,
Yeah, you know, we spent a lot of years breeding the cows. We got,
and they were pedigree and and years ago, I was massively into the head year of the Bulls and all of that, and. But over time, I just wanted good functional cows that that lasted. And I didn't want shed cows, but there was a period I wanted a nice fancy cow and all of that.
We'd probably all go through that and then realize that, like, the harder to keep. Yeah. So but I so I think we had a reasonably good herd of cows.
But you also don't want a bad day, like, you know, everything is it's got to be done. Yeah. So, you know, we got to the auction early, to to the guys that worked for me.
We all went early. Loading. What? The day before was not a good day. You know, we did it. To be fair, the whole year were great, and. But nobody was enjoying it. You know, it's a lovely. Like, the cows going on a little morning, and I was a lorry load guys and you know, and it was something for me this time last year.
You never even know when to the happening. So it was, it was difficult. That day was difficult. But then we might. We got a sale tomorrow. Let's get there early. Let's make sure everything's right. And, to be fair, when we got there, we did have to go around and put a bit of writing down. I guess that busy in the auction on the,
And, you know, just to make sure we were happy with how the cows looked,
and then it was really quite nice. I've had quite a few phone calls, and I saw somebody down at the Southwest Dairy Show, this week that set up for your cows are doing really well. And then a couple of other guys from Cheshire rounded up and said, oh, when when you get the phone call.
And that's the guy I bought some kind of you get good. Yeah. But nobody did. Which is great. And those people are dead by them. I've been happy. Yeah. So that's that's easy to come to. Yeah. That's easy. You know, they've gone on some, and they're doing a good job for somebody else. Yeah.
So that that made it slightly easier.
And people did say, oh, yeah, the cows look well to that. Yeah. You know, because you just don't know. Yeah. You don't know. There's a lot of factors at play. You can get to the market and, you know, the sun is shining and everybody is doing something else. And I think it's probably a good job that that market segment got Marty, because quite a few cattle went into South Wales and those other businesses and those people weren't there.
Yeah. But I was standing in the rostrum and I can see the computer and people bidding a montage. So,
yeah, I think that's probably a good thing for the industry that people don't necessarily have to drive  or  hours to get to a sale. Another really nice thing that happened on the day the sale on, I didn't expect these two good friends of wannabe reader.
Yeah, she said that she drove
to to just just give me some was for and it was like, what the hell would that be doing it? And then Graeme Kirkpatrick from Glasgow and obviously Scottish Energy, very good chair with me. At one time he drove down from Glasgow. I bet that meant a lot. I didn't come to buy anything, they just come to sort of be there because you know, so, so that was really nice.
That was really nice. I did buy my lunch afterwards. Yeah, before they had to drive straight home. Rightly so. I know that that probably helped on the day that that some people and I you know, those people, they they get it. They understand the commitment that. Sure. David Brooks from Uttoxeter, and David turned up and he said, I'll just come to give you some moral support, which actually means a lot they did on the day, put a smile on my face that shows the true spirit of the farming community.
I feel.
you know, for somebody to drive  or  hours, you know, when they're both really busy. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I've be reading never stops. And you know where she found the time to come that day? I don't know, because she's, you know, runs on business. Yeah. And if you've come by all of that and she turned up and it was like it did actually make the day so much easier.
And so, so talking about the beef, enterprise now what is your kind of future outlook vision for it? Well, we we'd always, for the last few years, we were using Longhorn on the cows we didn't want replacements on. Yeah. And they were going to be a challenge. And I don't, you know, that we've had our ups and downs and but we've always got sort.
And the relationship was a good one, and they've got, a rearing unit down in Somerset, which through the NFC had been to a few times for a long line. And they just actually send wind cars out there looking really good. And I was really,
I rang them and said, you know, can we work something out.
And they've got this sort of bed and breakfast scheme where,
in effect, you know, you, you put the weight on, you got a guaranteed minimum price at the end. If the price is above that, you get half of that. You split the difference. So there's a there's a guaranteed bottom in the market for when the finished budget that you get paid for every kilogram you put onto those animals, how you do it is up to you.
They will help you if you've got any questions, they want them on a particular weight. I'm sure we can do that. We're going to utilize the forage that will Knightsbridge.
Yeah. You mentioned that. Was it important? Yeah, it was because, you know, we've we've got the grassland, we've got the land you want to use. I didn't want a shed full of cows.
And then you know, not be. I like animals out. Yeah. You know, they can be some you know, there's  and now there's  out there. . I mean, won't go out. This year, obviously it's getting late, but, you know, we will be aiming to get them out as quickly as you can onto quality grass in the spring.
Yeah. I'm thinking around the  mark. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
now we don't need the collecting yard with tanks on the gates on them, so we'll get another . But more space. Yeah. So there are, there are some spaces we could fill up if we wanted to. But we thought, well, we'll just step water in the water.
Yeah. And see how we got, I didn't want to commit and . And then suddenly I wasn't happy with what they'd sent. Yeah. To be honest, that's what I've been really happy with. What we've been sent.
I'm happy with the contract that we've got.
The plus side for me was I didn't have to go out, you know,
when calves are quite expensive at the moment, aren't they?
The market seems to be flowing. I didn't have to go out and spend tens and tens and tens of thousands,
to make a a slightly bigger. That's such a similar margin at the end of it. Yeah. Plus getting some money back for what it's been so it just worked for me. The experience of having worked with them in the past probably helped make a decision.
Yeah. It wasn't completely, I mean, I don't quinny that used to be, I had beef and lamb. I was not too far from here. A very good beef farmer who has just totally on top of his facts and figures and costings more than anybody I know. So I had a word with him about, you know, is this worth doing?
Is it, you know, is it something that actually I can make a margin out of? It will give me a living? And so he looked at the the sort of contract that was offered. He felt it was good. It gave you that ratio. So, you know, I did go and ask people who were already in the job.
Yeah. That what I felt were doing it well, you know, is, you know, am I going in the right direction? We're only going to do something I'm going to regret. So. Yeah.
the, But I was after such a big decision, you want to make sure that it's the right one. So it was great to get animals back.
We're really pleased with the quality we got.
They averaged kg when they came.
And then obviously it will take them to finish. But,
the one thing you learn quite quickly is they don't like fences, like they like dairy animals. Do they respect electric fences? Yeah. Barbed wire is like, oh, we're just going to climb over there, you know.
So yeah. So we've had, you know, we've, we've had to run around the wood a few times. Man. That's what I was going to say. What is what do you miss about dairy?
I think if you've, if you've had a herd of cows for a long time and we were close to mostly you, you know, the cow families, you know, and the breeding and the young stuff and get the rest.
Yeah. It was always good to get a nice calf. And then two years later you're milking that constant, you know. Yeah. I remember when that was born. Yeah. There's a real sense of. Yeah. So, so I will miss that. I do miss that.
You know, like I say, I went down to the Cyprus Dairy Show last week just to see some people.
Yeah. And have a conversation. And there was a film some people don't know about, and I'll give you an answer. Then they knew the farmers and they quoted the names of the cows, and that was really quite nice. Yeah. That, you know, we bought this, this and this. And it wasn't just a cow. They bought particular kind of family.
So I bet it's odd though. Obviously you still got the parlor on the farm a bit. It's strange kind of stepping in there. You know you need time and we do need to sell it because they, you know, we, we had a couple of cows that, we couldn't sell.
They got shackles on at the time and other ones send them to market.
So they were dried off and one of them calved the other day, so we just I was just at the parlor. Okay. We sold it now, but. Yeah. And the cow. But, so milked it for a few days, and as long,
quite nice to hear the noise of the milking cows, even though it was only for one cow.
Could have been. Yeah, because we've. I bet you should become so accustomed to it. It's just one of those sounds of the farm that you. But. Yeah. So turning it on and, at least started up okay, well, we have started it up a few times just to make sure it still was. Yeah. It's it's amazing how just, you know, everything's, you know, the other thing you notice is the, the weeds will come up in the farmyard that never came before.
And he's walking over it so much. Nobody's coming under it so much. You know. Yeah. So it does change. It does change. And it's
different. But hopefully the beef,
the noise
or, you know,
good look in the noise, kind of. I've been pleased with them. I'll just want to make sure I do the job and leave myself a margin in it.
Yeah. Almost no end of the day. Yeah. Like I say, we went down that road of of finishing them. Because if TV's an issue, it's not gonna disrupt the business. Yeah.
So that was one of the reasons for going down that route, but actually just getting someone else back on the farm was, Yeah, it was a real positive.
I mean, definitely, obviously, as former NFU Dairy Board chair, it's really interesting kind of, hey, your insight and understanding of the dairy industry right now, we've had that recent survey from all around, the difficulties around labor. And, you know, it's not anything new. We all know in the, you know, in the sector, in the dairy sector that labor is such a critical issue.
I'm just kind of keen to kind of hear your experiences of it. Does it shock you that, you know, in that survey, over half a dairy farmers say that labor is an issue and you have to consider, you know, reducing the side of the herd or actually leaving the sector altogether because it is such a, critical part and just not having that ability to, to get staff.
you don't know the value of a good labor. So you've got mass labor is something that I've learned over the years.
And, you know, I think
it is an issue everywhere. It is an issue. It's been an issue at times as I went around the country to the NFU, you know, you would go, like I said, an engagement go of a,
farmers meeting up in Cumbria one year and everybody I know Labor's there's no problem.
You go that's  albums later and those people will pull. They've got it all sorted. And also somebody left and then somebody else came along. Chose the ceramic. Yeah. Disrupted it. And suddenly they've got a big labor issue where it was actually topics earlier. And I thought it was fine. So now I think the labor one
is one that we haven't cracked.
I do think, you know, you do hear some horror stories sometimes about farmers expecting too much from people. So we've got to make sure we we're good employers. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Because actually, not every dairy farmer is a good employer. Unfortunately. But I'm not saying I was, but yeah, you know, you do hear some horror stories of the hours.
Some people are expected to work. Just because the farmer does it doesn't mean you can expect it from the people that are employed to do as many hours. Yeah. You know, we want obviously we want people that love cows and they want to work on their farms and love milking and all of that, but they do need a life as well.
So I think, you know, we've got to get better to attract people and give them a large attracting that, you know, real the best talent out there, isn't it? Trying to nurture them through the sector and make the dairy sector appealing. Well, yeah. And there are you know, there's there's individuals I've met and farms I've been on over the years, like Robert Craig up in Cumbria,
you know, as gone from a small dairy farmer to a big dairy farmer, but he manages his staff and gives them it, does it really well.
John Torrance down in Essex, another farmer go to, you know you know he's farming within the M and actually doesn't have a labor issue because actually he's his whole focus is on making sure that they, paid well, take time off and have time with the family, all of those things. So and if you able to offset that use, that means retention.
Ultimately you know that those two people would be a really good example of, you know, they must be doing something right. Yes. Yeah. You know, we should be learning from but it also isn't that easy if you're milking, you know, that both milking quite a large amount of cows, actually milking  and you just, you know, you need some help to help you.
Yeah. It's a different relationship, isn't it? Yeah. And it's a different dynamic. Yeah. And,
Yeah. No, it is an issue and it's one that will farmers will do. I'm not doing this anymore because of that. I hear that all the time. And then the other thing is, you know, we've got, you know, the government still talking about permitting, you know, that that will force farmers to have to invest if you've got no succession and you've got a bit of an issue with labor, and you're suddenly looking at spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on the farm, people don't.
I'm not going to do it. Yeah. But there will be others that pick up the baton. Yes, without a doubt. Yeah. You know, we don't we know farms that are expanding. You know, on a, on a big scale.
But, we're going to lose that to this what people view as the traditional family farm.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's , ,  cows, you know,
very much run by the owner who's in the day to day. I'm not sure. You know, those are the ones, unfortunately, that,
might not see as feasible to make that investment to to get to where, you know, legislation is going to potentially tell them they're going to adopt a farm.
It's been a difficult year, you know, across across the whole industry.
But with the dairy sector in particular, in terms of milk price, start of the year is now picking up again.
Now, when and kind of future projections around profitability is looking a bit more promising. But it is that kind of fluctuation. Is there all the time up and down how you manage that?
It's a real tricky challenge. Oh yeah. And it's it's quite you know we've
you know, milk prices are going back up, but there's still,
you know, there's still not a massive margin in it. There's not it's still not, it's not like you're in the land of milk and honey and everything's wonderful. And we can do all those jobs that we know we now need to in that we no need, investment in that,
that we have managed to do when, when the, when the milk price was that was lower.
How
much is investment playing a part in this transition, particularly for dairy farmers, because there's huge amounts of us being put on dairy. There is. And, you know, if you, have a certain age like this, like, like me and you, you've not got the succession to come in.
I mean, you know, I know people, who've got, you know, the sun's just come back out the door has just come back, and it almost reinvigorates their business. Yeah. Because they come in with new ideas and they come in with passion to drive forward. And you see those businesses going forward and getting over those obstacles. Yeah, but it does.
You know, they still need the ability to really to raise the capital, to invest or
quite often you see a big investment going on on the farm. And then actually we sell some bonds when we did X, Y, or Z, which is enable them to do it. Yes. Their business decisions. And, you know, they found a way to fund that future investment.
Not everybody is in that situation. And a lot of us are tenants. And which is a whole different ball game. It's a whole different ball game when you've got a lot of the land agents that are quite keen to persuade the landlords that they don't need those dairy farmers that we can, whether it's biodiversity, net gain, whatever the environmental scheme is going or whatever, that's a real threat to the tenanted sector.
Yeah. And dairy is a big part of the tenant sector. Absolutely. Yeah. So yeah. So that there's a whole load of things that influence that area. And I'm sure we will still be producing a similar amount of milk in ten years time. What we probably could have half the farms dairy farmers doing yet. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
There'll be those that will maybe.
I think we are critical to the point of way to do it. They have the ability to do it. And then there will be others that that's the daunted by the thought of making that from an investment, because there are certain age and they're not going to actually once we can't keep milking for long enough to repay that.
And, you know,
so yeah. So I think it's a real critical point. It's where real big decisions are going to have to be made over the next, you know, few months and years. Once we get a clearer idea of the future direction of this new government, once we have a clearer idea around budget, but also just the scale of investment that is needed to meet regulation.
You know, I do think, you know, even I've said a lot for those that can do it, I think there is a bright future. There's a real opportunity, and it's a real opportunity. But not everybody is in that situation, either in their time of life or the ability to be able to make that kind of an investment. Or like I say, if you're a tenant and your landlord doesn't, you know, is making your life a little bit difficult or doesn't allow you to has other ideas for for use of the land, you know, what we saw when SFI came in, you know, big estates and everything into, well, bird seed and, you know, the
government weren't listening initially when we said, but in that need to cap this. But you know, the damage was already done in that situation. It's kind of taken out of the farmers hands, isn't it? Yeah. And from a tenant farmers perspective, you know, you can't underestimate from for tenant farms, for the dairy sector. That is such an opportunity.
Council funds for for new talent young I mean, we you know, we started in Staffordshire on the county councils more than it was. I think it was  acres in . So I was ten, something like that. Yeah.
,  council budgets. We're seeing that across. Oh yeah. And, you know,
And then you've got councilors whose budgets are under pressure, who will almost take money and you can understand their point of view is,
they're not had the history and they're not necessarily. And, you know, we know that the county council small loans were created after the war when they fought for ex-servicemen to come back and and start to create a career and a livelihood.
And, you know, we did progress through to establish a county council, smallholdings,
the first one we were at for two years, the next round over six years. And that's the thing, they provide that progression, don't they? You know, you've got the starter farms. Then you go onto the progressive farms and it enables because when you first start up
as a young person coming to the dairy sector, it's such a big investment initiative.
You know, it's not it isn't all doom and gloom. In this week's Farmers Gardening, which I was reading, was waiting for you. There's that call from Cumbria. Yes.
You know, dairy farm massively diversified, into Belgian blue, cattle breeding as well. I'm just flicking through the article. You're listening. Actually, there are people. It's exciting that it's a mindset that can make it work.
But, you know, perhaps  years ago, I would have been up for that. But, you know, when you get to sort of the later on and you start to get a bit tired and jaded, you know, it's, it's, to make the kind of investment and commitment they made. You know, it does take a bit of youth, I think.
The times. Yeah. Not certainly just in terms of kind of future the dairy sector. Just summarize when we where you see it and kind of what are I mean, I did a lot of work. I did a lot of work as dairy Board chair on the contracts legislation, probably eight years of pushing and pushing and pushing. Now, how do you think that's going?
Yeah, I mean, I met the adjudicator actually the other day. But I just by chance and I had a good chat. I think it's important there is somebody that's going to oversee it to make sure it is fair. My only fear is that farmers will have to do some work to make sure that contracts are right, or somebody on their behalf.
Will. Yeah.
It's a once in a lifetime opportunity to change the relationship and, you know, and hopefully it will create more sort of partnership working. Yeah. Where everybody understands, you know, but it's not the bad time or the bad process. That's the way I want prices to make money. If I also want them to pay a decent return to the farmer.
Yeah. You know, I know we've seen quite substantial investments in the UK from processors over the last few years.
You know, and I think that's a real positive because actually, we, you know, partly that our climate's slightly better than a lot of other European countries. Yeah. And I see the UK as a good place to source milk.
But
you've got I think it could change the dynamic. I, you know, I mean Muller Supply Group is going back to being a DPO which I think is a real positive.
But it's about they both have to make money. It's not, you know, how little you can pay the farmer so that they don't
quit. It should be, you know, how do we all invest?
How do we grow? So I do think if they get the mindset right and great partnerships, real partnerships, and hopefully the fact that they'll have to sit down and talk about the legislation and the contract standing forward, they will develop a better understanding of each other. And it's those finding those commonalities, isn't it? And essentially you're working towards the same goal.
You know, we've got to help one another. We created the Directional task Force when I was
on the dairy board. And I know for a fact and there was a big visit over September of of all these countries coming in and looking at our industry because they want it, they want our product, they want it.
Right. And I farmer saying to me, oh, why do we want to be pushing for exports? Well, actually the more export opportunities that it keeps the domestic market honest. And so if a retailer, because we didn't mention those and that a whole different based if a retailer is putting pressure on a processor and we know they do that they want to pay less for a product or expect a better service which cost more.
But they want to pay for it.
If that particular business has export opportunities, it can turn around again. I'm sorry. Actually, we've got a better market over there. And I think I think by working together they can do that. But do you think these contracts are enough to try and alter the relationship?
if farmers make the best of it, the processor will have to talk to the farmer about what's in the contract.
The farmer will then might not like his milk price, but we'll have a better understanding of what drives his milk price. Yeah. You know, I mean a bit more transparency. Yeah. And that transparency and fairness is all it was about really. It won't you won't book the market. It won't book the market. But you know, a lot of,
a lot of farmers don't really have a relationship with their milk buyer.
They don't know what's driving the milk by. You know, I mean, you know, I mean, I buy in, UK at the minute. Aren't they intending to,
yeah. I've known Carl around for a long time. Carl Woodcock and
he stepped in and helped. I have a lot of farmers that have been looking for a home at times when they've been given notice by, you know, because they're not in the right place.
But but very clearly, you know, I've sat in his office and I, you know, I wasn't going to go move to him, but he go, right. If you live in Birmingham and Skelmersdale, it does get the milk here. I make this much margin and you will get what's left. That conversation. But it was, it was very open and I will explain what's left.
I'd like to explain what drives that price. And you know, that kind of relationship which not everybody could do. But, you know, not everybody liked the milk price, but they fully understood why it was what it was. And that's a big thing. And what about building more positive relationship between the farmer and the retailer
that I think the legislation will help the processor stand up to the retailer because there'll be certain obligations that the process there has to make to the farmer.
So when the retailer said that we want X, I said, well, I'm sorry, I can't do that because the market isn't doing that. And the farmer can clearly see in his contract what drives his milk price. And if I do the opposite, the GM is the retailer. I'll have the adjudicator on the back because actually I've got I'm not you know, markets go up and down, milk prices will go down.
But we've known in times when businesses are paying  or £. to that farmers lower than somebody else and they don't on in the market. And then that drives everybody's price down. Yeah. So you've got ones trying to do the right thing, but then you've got other people who are substantially low milk price, but then they're using that low milk price to win business.
Because of the continual downward pressure on retail prices.
And just finally, Michael, if any anyone kind of listening to this or reading the article, it
you are not alone in terms of making this decision that you've made quite recently, but anyone that's kind of deliberating at the moment, finding it difficult in the current climate, not sure where to go, what kind of advice would you have for them?
Speak to all the people. I mean, I've had a lot of people ring me up once I've made the decision. Because you do understand how difficult it is. And,
but you don't until you've done it, you know, almost. And so I've had people ring me up and go, you know, we're thinking of doing this, you know, I mean, I asked Debbie, you know, I've been critical of it in the past.
But I do think it does have a lot to offer. There are some really good people in there.
You know, used the advice that's out there and, you know, but actually speak to other farmers quite often the sometimes, you know, I mean, not they find a found somebody that potentially would have come in here and taken the pressure off my, was if it hadn't been for a other things, you know, that would have been nice.
Yes. You know, and sometimes farmers maybe by working together, I can find a different solution. I feel like this one might want to expand, but could do it,
getting rid of junk stuff. Yeah. There are a real opportunities out there, but we are quite,
sort of insular, that sometimes. And, and there is this thought that if I sell the cows, you know, I've, I failed to find them.
You know, I've, I've had that. So, you know, I still have it occasionally enough.
And I think. Yeah, the more you talk the more you get over that. Yes. Because,
you know, I mean, like I say, when I did farm my dad up and say, I've put the cars in for sale, I didn't get the answer.
I thought, get I got. I don't know why you've been doing it long as you have done. It's interesting that, you know, you weren't expecting to see, you know, I think it wouldn't it wouldn't have been really negative. You. I didn't expect him to be. Well, have you thought about it? Yeah. Yeah. And it was. Well, I don't blame you.
You know, you've got to look after yourself. I'm on the whole list of all the things. So that's the thing. Every individual farmer that decisions are all different and the factors that contribute to it, you know. But there you go. Family that worked with and they're still around, you know, in the back of your head you about how will they take this.
Yeah. You know so perhaps I should have spoken to them before. That's a book for sale. But it was you know, it's not that easy. Yeah, yeah. It's still and you're right. I had to get a square in my head first. Yeah. And luckily, I didn't get a negative response. Yeah. And I've got two sons that are not in farming and they, they've both well out in a while.
You've been doing it as long as you have. But they weren't . Yeah. You love your cows. Thank you. Michael. Fortunately, that's the case.

A really important message from Michael there that giving up should never be seen as failure. And it's so important if you're going through something similar to Michael, or still weighing up your options whether to give up, leave or adjust your phone business to talk to other farmers, to learn from other farmers, and not to struggle alone in your own thoughts in that decision making process.
A really important message there. Well, another fantastic episode on the Farmers Guardian podcast. That's all for this week. Don't forget to tune into next week episode. Goodbye.