Can a new educational course tackle livestock worrying attacks on farm?

On the podcast this week, we are joined by Welsh farmer Clive Jones, Wales’ Rural Affairs Secretary Huw Irranca-Davies (@huw4ogmore) and Wales’ Wildlife and Rural Crime Coordinator Rob Taylor (@rural_wales), to discuss livestock worrying.

@WGRural

Livestock worrying, when a dog chases or attacks livestock on agricultural land can have costly consequences on the health, well-being and finances of farmers across the UK. In most cases, farmers are witnessing first-hand the devastation a dog can have on livestock, leaving farmers to pick up the pieces afterwards. Tavistock farmer Chris Dawe said 49 sheep were killed after being attacked by dogs on farm back in January.

Last week, Farmers Guardian reported on the devastating livestock worrying attack at Liz Nutting’s farm in Lampeter, Ceredigion, which killed 10 of her Ryeland flock. Following numerous bids to seek justice, the dog owner only received a £75 fine despite his dogs causing £6,500 in damages. Cheshire farmer Phil Latham was left disgusted and heartbroken after loose dogs savaged 18 calves in a pen. And you will hear about the impacts of livestock worrying Mr Jones has had to face as well. In its latest annual ‘Rural Crime Report’, NFU Mutual said livestock worrying had cost farmers £2.4 million, with animals being severely injured or killed in dog attacks, up nearly 30% compared to the previous year. Incidents keep on taking place on what seems like a weekly basis. But why? Is the law outdated? The Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act was created 71 years-ago in 1953. The new Labour Government has yet to confirm whether a private members’ bill, tabled by former Defra Secretary Therese Coffey in December to amend the law and provide police with greater powers, will be progressed or not

Police in Scotland have the powers to impose fines of up to £40,000 for owners found worrying livestock, alongside receiving a potential 12 month prison sentence. Is it a lack of respect from dog owners? Incidents can often take place when a dog is not on a lead. And an attitude of ‘my dog could never hurt anyone’ still persists. Is education the answer? The Welsh Government has worked hand-in-hand with animal charity Blue Cross and Mr Taylor regarding an optional educational course if dog owners are found worrying livestock. You will hear more about the course in this podcast.

Farmers Guardian has been supporting the ‘Take the Lead’ campaign, alongside the National Sheep Association to raise awareness of keeping dogs on lead when near livestock. We can provide you with free signs to place around your farm warning dog owners to keep their dogs on a lead near livestock. To request yours, send a stamped self-addressed A4 envelope to: FG Take the Lead, Farmers Guardian, Unit 4, Fulwood Business Park, Preston, Lancashire, PR2 9NZ. We will be able to send up to 25 signs. Alternatively, you can contact reporter Chris Brayford if you have been a victim of a livestock worrying incident and if you wish to share your story at chris.brayford@farmersguardian.com. But for now, enjoy the pod!

Transcript

Hello, everybody. I'm Chris Bradford and this is the Farmers Guardian podcast.
Right. Let's get crackin.
A very warm welcome to all our listeners. Far and wide on the podcast this week we address a very, very important issue in farming, one that I've covered all too often, which comes with its own heartbreak.
And the toll that it places on farmers both emotionally and financially.
And that is livestock worrying.
So from the time that I've been at Farmers gardening over a year and a half, there seems to be, you know, you can't go a week without addressing some form of livestock worrying incident on farm. And that's why I've and I've spoken to farmers that have been involved in incidents often repeated.
And you get a sense of Farmers that are just that have got used to it over the years, which I find really sad, really sad and really upsetting.
And then you get cases like we reported last week with a farmer in Lampeter in Wales called Liz Nutting, and an incident that she went through on the farm last year where ten of her flock was sadly killed in a livestock worrying incident, and the justice that she tried to obtain following the incident with the dog owner, and it only led to a  pound fine.
And so with that comes quite rightly, a lot of frustration.
About that, the level of justice that farmers are able to receive.
When you think about the case with Liz and the damage that the police said had caused almost , pound.
Is just simply astonishing.
So what can be done about this in the future?
So not so long ago I went to Wales and I was kindly invited To discuss a new initiative from the Welsh Government regarding a new educational course That dog owners can take. Which will hopefully provide them with a greater understanding and appreciation of the destructive impact of livestock worrying.
So on the part you're going to hear from Welsh farmer called Clive Jones, who's been through several incidents of livestock, were in over the years.
Some of these faults as well. About what changes need to be implemented does there need to be greater fines? Does the need to be a prison sentence? You'll also hear. From Wales is Rural Affairs secretary and he's also the deputy first Minister Huw Irranca-Davies.
Why supporting severing that educational aspect around livestock were in. Because even for someone like myself, you know, from a non farming background, how do you told me and that I'm being really honest. if you had told me what livestock were in was over you know, over a year ago prior to being in the farming profession, I wouldn't have had a clue.
And this is what we're combating. It's a mixture of the lack of education alongside a lack of respect. And it's that lack of respect is where we really need, push and reach those people convince them about the merits of taking the lead.
And then very finally, you'll hear from Wales is Wildlife and Rural Crime coordinator Rob Taylor.
So Rob was formerly with Wales Police, and he's been quite instrumental in trying to push for greater legislation and greater powers for police to to tackle these incidents.
And you'll hear how he was quite instrumental as well in what was a private member's bill from the former Defra secretary. Theresa Coffey in December last year, The dogs. Protection of livestock Amendment Bill. and from a police perspective from Rob as well.
He can give that understanding why police are trying to do that. When it comes to tackling livestock worrying incidents. And a lot of farmers I've spoken to will tell you that the the police have been brilliant, but they've been very limited in terms of the powers that that's available to them. And sometimes in the past, there's been a lack of the education around farming and livestock were in. But how were bridging that and how an educational course could be instrumental in improving that? So for now. Enjoy the pod. And lets's learn about livestock worrying, together. Thank you.

So I'm delighted to be joined by Clive Jones. Clive.
Brilliant to be joined with you today. Could you give us a bit of a flavor as to where abouts in, in Wales that, that we're in. We're in mid to South Wales. In course just over looking at the Brecon Beacons basically. farmer as well.
Could you tell me a little bit about the size of your farm and what it is? He's farming just over  acres.
breeding ewes. Early learning flock. In the late learning flock.  suckler cows. Take most of the animals through then to fast. So, yeah, producing  animals a year.
So all the lambs of local livestock markets that. and today, Clive, with, with being copied by the rural affairs secretary here, Kieran Davis with heart, Rob Taylor. Just tell us a little bit about what's happened today and why. It's been a very important discussion as well. We had trouble back in the spring with, dogs killing livestock.
We lost a few sheep. We actually destroyed the dogs on the day it happened. And it's not a local lady that works at the ministry. Knew what happened and thought it might be good if I spoke to the cabinet minister just to put across our side of the story. Basically, what we have to put up with and the consequences of what happens,
we'll come back to, to the incident, spoke in terms of having the rural rural affairs sector here today, listening to to your concerns.
What what what was it that, that you spoke about with them? Is, hopefully there's going to be changes in the law and how people are dealt with and what what the consequences will be of dog wearing future. They seem to be very, very interested, seem to take everything on board that we said, hopefully going forward things will improve and make it easier for us to solve the problems that when they do happen.
But it would be nice if people were more aware and things like this didn't happen in the first place.
Well, exactly. And in terms of livestock worrying, has it been a problem that you've had to contend with a quite a while from? We've always had a problem that used to be very, very limited. And if once every couple of years, if that, but we seem to be having more trouble, I must have met.
You know, it's, it's quite a regular appearances  or  times a year with, with livestock being, you know, not necessarily killed, but, you know, chased or stressed or worried by by dogs, basically.
People don't seem to be aware that when they're around livestock, walking through fields, the dogs should be on the length.
it's just something that we need to educate people about.
If you don't mind me asking, Clive, how long have you been farming for?
I left college in , which is a while ago. I liked in farming, and ever since. So we're we're we're talking nearly nearly ,  years and. Yeah, it's. Yeah. Like I like to say. Yeah. Must be. Yeah. But yeah I've been some I've found my, my mum and dad's down at the home all my life that's been brought up on the farm and took over running on the farm in .
I've been at home for a couple of years before helping dad that went to college, come back and basically run the SA Nelson School
and in terms of the incident of of livestock were in that have happened over the years,
Is it something that's been a problem more recently or it's more frequent? More it's more frequent.
That used to be it's always been a problem. There's always going to be dogs that are going to chase sheep. But it used to be a once in a blue moon, basically. But it does seem to be more of a problem, I suppose as more people got more dogs and more people come into the countryside all days.
So yeah, there's something we deal with on a fairly regular basis, I must admit.
And no, it's not always severe. They have dogs off leads chasing sheep. It's a problem innit. If they're not killing them, the stress in them, they're harassing them. Shouldn't happen.
it might be very difficult to to remember. But do you know how many
livestock that you've lost over the years due to livestock worry? We had a very, very bad incident about  years ago.
We've probably lost  or  animals over the space of a fortnight before we actually discovered what dog was doing it.
Then  or  years ago with another incident, then we, we lost probably  or . And then this spring, now we lost, about two kills and one was named as time. So, yeah, it's almost up
in terms of maybe that that longevity.
Are we talking are we are we in the tens bracket? In the hundreds book? Tens? Tens? Yeah, but that's not the animal's dead. It's not. It's not just the animals that die. Is it? Like we had an incident last autumn where dogs were an hour and a half and a bunch of breeding sheep chasing them round and round round.
We don't know how many lambs were reabsorbed, how many ewes didn't go to the top because of the stress, you know, and stuff like that. You can't quantify.
And yeah, they're obviously it's the other day of running around. I mean they're not going to do as well unless it's the stuff you don't see. There's probably bigger issues and stuff.
You do see. Another massive problem was I've forgotten to mention that is I'm serious in the lambs and dog feces. We have carcasses. We don't go dead weight now specifically because we've had instances where we've taken lambs to the abattoir and they've rejected the carcasses because it's, see, oh, this
I'm picking up contaminated feces. Now, the other thing is, is, cows with knees wraps up with calves being aborted, cows unable to get back, and calves from the same thing again.
And that's getting to be more of an issue.
So saying
seeing these incidents firsthand qualifies.
have covered a lot of livestock or in incidents. And I've seen the pictures sometimes and, and it's beyond description, you know, there's there's torn faces, there's chunks of, you know, muscle and blood that's everywhere.
I know, it's it must be difficult. But see, in the first hand, Clive.
What what is that like to see as a farm equipment, you need very little room in there because at least it's livestock. He's cared for and reared and and doing your best for unless you love the animals and look after them, it's pointless doing the job. As far as I'm concerned. Yeah. My dad always said if you don't look after them, they won't look after you know, you look after them.
You'll have good stock to sell on. You'll do well. It's it's not nice. But the other hand, having to shoot a dog is absolutely heartbreaking. I shot two in the spring and it was I wasn't myself the days afterwards. It's horrible. Is is something you wouldn't want anybody to have to do.
But it's got to the point where if you don't make that decision, it's just going to keep happening.
that is what is in the disposal of the farm within the law. That is what they can do. If a dog is attacking their livestock, they are within their rights to do that.
But
like you said, it's something that
is deeply, you know, it's deeply troubling to her. It was a horrible, horrible experience to, to to go through that,
that's not something I want to do, but it's something sometimes you have to do in.
In the case this spring, we were notified by somebody else. It was happening. It's if we hadn't been notified, the losses could have been tenfold. A neighbor saw the dogs, saw the dogs worrying. I went fully prepared for what I was about to find, but I could have had seen the sheep that morning. They were fine. I probably wouldn't have seen them till the following day.
There could have been  dead cheaper, but it would just happen to be lucky that someone was living next door and and told us it could have been a very, very different story.
from what you've said earlier, it's
single incident of long story. It can have such a huge impact in the running of your business, whether it's
the sheep that have been killed, whether it leads to
I've, I've heard of cases where it said to sheep abortions as well because the visitors is so, so stressed by
going through that.
And it you know, I guess there's that there's the financial aspect of that. You know, I'm
thinking it's within the, the hundreds of thousands, if not thousands that it's cost over the years, but then there's the emotional
the emotional impact of it. And, and
how you keep going.
You have a lot of aspiring to to go for, you know, I knew the owners, the dogs in the spring and I couldn't bring myself to tell them what I'd done.
I contacted the police, tell them what had happened, and the police contacted them and they were absolutely fantastic about it. They were very understanding, very good. But it was I couldn't bring myself to to tell them it's horrible. That's the horribleness of it.
Was it punished the. No, no, I said I didn't because she was so, so nice about it.
And so I said I don't, I just want to put it behind me, basically forget about it. And we'll we'll carry on being friends. I know them very well. Normalize and we'll just. Yeah.
She offered conversation. I said, no, I'll be happy to, you know, let's move on and
go forward basically. So yeah,
that's the way I worked it.
And I'm sure you'll
you know, you'll know the farmers that have gone through something similar to this. And they'll have also,
you know, the, the I think the level of punishment what I'm coming out here is in some cases as well reported case recently there was only a  pound fine for
,  she that were killed.
That's that's not right. It's appalling. Yeah. It's appalling whether whoever was involved in that, that the poor farmer that went through that must have broken their heart, I would have thought,
how you cope with that. I really don't
what you think needs to happen to to change.
compensation for farmers for damages, if that's what they want to pursue.
whether they're not allowed to keep dogs again or whether they've got to be taught how to look after dog properly, I don't know, I don't know how it works. But yeah, there needs to be some sort of
system in place where it can't happen again because like the guy explained this morning, they could put down your dog today.
There's nothing stopping you buying two more dogs tomorrow. And exactly the same thing happened again, because it's more likely if you can't control the dog, you're not going to control the next event.
You don't want to add amnesia. Okay. So, you see people on social media in the spring, there was a local person who put something on about landing, and dogs should be on Leeds at all times, and fields and people commenting that they've never put their dog on the lead and they weren't going to be forced put the dog on the lead.
And that's the attitude where the fighting against
it's irresponsibility. Yeah, I think in its simplest of terms, it's owners that
are irresponsible because they don't
want to be considerate of if they are out enjoying the countryside, walking through farms, etc. they don't understand why it is important to have the dogs on a lead. Yeah, it's just an irresponsible art to the the
the pet could never attack, never harm anything.
But when it does happen, it's like a complete shock. Everybody's completely blinkered. My dog would never do that is all the response we always get when we ask people about dogs. No, don't worry. My dog will never chase. My dog will never. But then you speak to people who walk the hills, and their dog will go off for half an hour.
On its own. They have no idea where it is. What it's doing is having fun too. It's fine, but you shouldn't have to.
How do you reach these people? Quite. How do you make them see that they need to be respectful in the countryside? I think they need to be aware of the consequences of what happens.
Like I've got photos of the state lambs were in after the attack. Maybe they need some sort of shock treatment to see that this is what happens when you aren't,
answer like a good, good dog owner. When your dog does do things wrong, I okay, I think they think it's just the playing and they're having fun and it's all be fine.
They have no no idea of the consequences. You know, financially, emotionally
who and what happens to stock. I don't think they can I don't know. They don't know don't care to know. But they need to be made aware of what does happen. I think
there was from from my conversations with Hugh and Rob today, there's been a big focus on education, the educational aspect of
of this because, you know, us, myself from a non farming background and, and only coming into the industry a year and a half ago before that, if you just said what is life story into me
I wouldn't have been able to tell you what it was and
I feel quite ashamed of that, really. So I think that's another thing that we're competing against. Were members of the public. Of course, they'll know the action of a dog attacking livestock, but livestock worrying,
So does that need to be used on the terminology? Probably. But do you think people in general need educating about agriculture and farming and food production?
I think it's a it's a very, very broad thing. I think. Yeah, that we've we've had very good friends from the cities call and see us and spend weekends with us, and they think we're organic because our cows and sheep are outside by the roadside, because we're a conventional, traditional farm.
very clever people didn't have a clue about supply and food production in general.
And farming in general is
is, not understood. I think.
So it's important that
people recognize and understand
the value,
hard work that farmers put into ensuring that they have
food on the plates, because, again, it's another aspect that seems to be largely forgotten. You know, how important farmers are in our daily lives. And like the cabinet, Mr. Minister, comes.
Dave. Well, we live in a beautiful area you seen today. We overlooked language like and he was commenting and the wonder people want to come here because it is so gorgeous. It's like this because we farm it. No other reason. It's because of what we do, the way we farm and the way we look at them. That's why it's like it is.
That's why people want to come and see it, and it's all going to work together in the
and just
livestock were in a as a whole. Just what kind of
toll has that placed on the as it led to from people, you know, from the farms that I've spoken to, it's sometimes it's led to
sleepless nights, worries about I.
Yeah I was very upset for a couple of days, but I was very, very lucky that the the owners, the dogs were fantastic. They understood what the problem was. They were they were brilliant. It could have been a lot, lot different. Like the day after it happened, I had a phone call of the firearms people who were considering taking my guns
because they thought if there was any conflict or any animosity between me and the owners of dogs, that it might be safe of my guns to be taken away until things were sort of those I thought was appalling.
But as it was, the woman was, she was she's been brilliant. She's been actually fantastic. But it could have been an awful lot different than you do hear cases where it is an awful lot different than social media on threats and all sorts of stuff going on. Yeah, we were, I would say lucky, but the woman has been absolutely brilliant.
I guess information had to do with that though. So the listeners have to say, no, no, but I know farmers having trouble as we speak with dogs on rented properties or houses. They don't want to take the actions I did because they don't want the consequences. They're putting up with dogs, burying their sheep and killing their sheep because the dogs have no control,
because they don't want to, you know, go up there to do what they should do or what should be done for them.
Really, the ones that dogs attack sheep, the police should be involved in.
must be a nightmare to think you've got a dog next door at any time it's leased out, it's going to
terrorize your dog.
Just kind of very. Lastly,
I think the issue as a whole, it's going to take quite a long time to get right
to deal with.
But
in the kind of, kind of the immediate future. So if we were to have this conversation again, say, in a year's time, what would you like to see in terms of that conversation around livestock were and, and kind of
incidents as a whole across, you know, across the UK. What would you like to say? I'd just like people to be more aware of what can go wrong, basically.
And what they know, what actions they should take to start to stop it going wrong. That's all. Going to leave, isn't there, I think is that is, you walking across farmland, common land. I cannot see a problem with having your dog on the lead,
and that's what should happen.
But people don't always want to do what they should.
you just got to be more aware and and see the consequences. And, you know, punishment should be made with punishment is cheap. I think especially in these some of these really aggressive cases was another one in North Wales and dog's got in a shed. I know the dogs were destroyed, but the the damage they did to sheep in the shed was unbelievable.
it is a truly horrific
incident that yeah, people and farms have to go through and, the farmers as a whole, you know, farms are
family businesses lot of the time. And you've got to take that home with you, you know? So
but no, when when we got a phone call, which was very good evidence by the in the village, if we get a phone call to say there's problems wherever your heart sinks, basically you just.
Yeah. Go there expecting the worst. Very often it's not. But. Yeah,
it's one of the worst or worst ones to have. I must admit, sometimes it just dogs wandering around perfectly fine, but quite often it's not
Yeah, something we seem to see a lot more of this, but let
Well, Clive, thank you so much for telling us your story and kind of your your thoughts on this.
And, and I truly do feel it will help for the thief, for the farmers, so that I have that have experienced this and that do understand what livestock were and can do. So thank you very much. Thank you. Okay.

Well, I'm delighted to be joined by the rural affairs Secretary. Huw Irranca-Davies. Pleasure to be with you in Wales this morning. Could you give us a bit of a flavor as to what it is that we've been discussing today, please? Yeah, we've been out to with Clive, a local farmer who farms in this glorious setting here, going down a single slate.
But one of the problems he has in common with many farmers throughout Wales and throughout the UK are dog attacks on sheep, on livestock, on horses. And it's not an issue of the dogs, per se. It's an issue of responsible owners and actually getting the message through to people that if you have a dog, you have responsibilities, you don't let it off the leash.
You have it under control at all times. When you're in a rural setting, when you're in this glorious countryside. This is a work in countryside.
And unfortunately, we have too many attacks on sheep and on livestock. We have too many fatalities, too many sheep being maimed. And we need to turn this around. So there's a responsibility on the owners, without a doubt.
And there's also things we can do in government as well. So, for example, we have in Wales quite a unique position. We have a guy called Rob who is, animal welfare and Wildlife coordinator. He links in with the police and with farmers and with organizations across Wales and looks at solutions. So one of those is working with Blue Cross now and Blue Cross, if you are an owner, that is found to have not controlled your animal and they've been worrying sheep or worrying cattle or carried out an attack, you may not only face a penalty, but you might also or as part of it, have a community order which will put you with
Blue Cross, who will take you through what it is to be a responsible owner, and how you should actually look after your pets when you're in the countryside.
But in addition to that,
we are also very keen if there is an opportunity in Westminster for the reintroduction of strengthened legislation on,
worrying livestock
with dogs, and we hope that there will be an opportunity where the new government will be able to bring that back itself at the last election.
We're hoping that that come back. And it would certainly have our support from much government, to bring that legislation through.
the issue of livestock worrying as well. It's, you know, it's not just Wales. It's a national issue, isn't it? And I guess that's why
it's imperative that, you know, that message is really heard in Westminster.
Because we say, you know, I've not seen it in person, but I can imagine the farmer, the police officer, the dog, all could ask to see, the impacts of a of a life that were an incident. It can be pretty devastating encounters. It can be devastating. You have the impacts on the, livestock,
on the sheep themselves.
And sometimes these impacts will not be seen immediately. As Clive was saying, sometimes you will have a day where there's a dog running wild. It'll be worrying the sheep. And you may not see an immediate, ripping of limbs or any fatalities.
But you wonder as those sheep go in through the,
Lambing
season, whether that's had an impact on them that might affect their capacity to actually bring forward lambs, for the season ahead.
But it's also the impact on the farmer themselves and on this family, because we can't forget that all of this landscape that we're seeing behind us throughout the UK, these are farmers and their families. The last thing they want to do, it's to have to have to take the ultimate action against a dog running across these fields, tearing into their livestock or into into their sheep.
Because it's traumatic for them,
as a family as well. And as Clive was saying to me,
one of the incidents that he had where sheep were being killed on his field, but he actually had to,
tell those, those dogs who were, chasing the sheep because there was no other way forward.
Well, that that was on his mind for days and weeks after. It's the last thing the farmer wants to do. So if we can get the education pieces right,
with people, not only people who visit the area and tourists coming into these glorious the glorious countryside we have here in Wales, but also to local people as well.
Don't leave your dogs out of the house at night for a little run, because if they run into that field opposite, they will spot something that looks fun to chase after and then it leads on from there. So the education piece is also key as well.
It is referring people to the Countryside Code. But it's also for those owners who for some reason do not behave responsibly.
It's referring them through the courts as well, so that they have to actually go through a
responsible ownership program with an organization like Blue Cross, very successful, not dissimilar in some ways from speed awareness courses that some people will be familiar with confronting you with the evidence of what happens when you actually let your dog off the leash, and the ravages that they can, that they can incur on livestock and, and sheep.
So there's a range of things that we need to do together.
And I think part of my visit here today and speaking with Clive and his family is to ram that message home, be a good owner. Most owners, are they trying to do the right thing? Most owners don't think that their dog is going to be the one that inflicts damage on those sheep in the field, but as farmers will tell you, I will tell you if you let your dog off the leash, there is every possibility when they see that sheep, those cattle, they will chase them and then you won't be able to stop them.
So please be a responsible owner when you're out in the countryside.
I guess
that there is a lot of
problems that farmers are facing in terms of that,
the punishment and element for. So these crimes and, and the impact that it can have on businesses as well.
Where do you think it's going wrong in terms of
dog dog owners, dog walkers?
Why do we keep seeing these incidents taking place?
I think we know that this is it's not a new phenomenon, but the more people that are in the countryside and we want people, by the way, to come and enjoy this glorious countryside. But the more people are here, the more we have to do on the education piece. And that's not simply reinforcing the countryside Code, which you'd have thought everybody would know about, but some people don't seem to understand it, so we have to profile that and make sure that's clear in people's minds.
But it's also, as I've been discussing with Clive here today, when people arrive at a campsite, it's making sure that that message is clear, not just in signs, but in information that is provided to them, particularly if
they're bringing a dog with them to that campsite.
That sort of engagement to say, don't think when you're out of sight, you can then leave your dog off the leash.
Actually, that's the moment when you should keep it on a leash all the time, when you're out in the countryside. So we have to keep doing that season after season, year after year, and we have to do it more now that there's more people out here enjoying the countryside. But we also have to do those other pieces as well.
And there was a good piece of legislation in front of the UK Parliament just before the general election hit, and it would have strengthened the range of measures around livestock worrying and attacks by dogs, including things such as looking at,
extending the way you can, pursue owners beyond the farm itself. So if it's beyond the farm boundaries, but actually on to the streets or wherever, where, where an owner would say, well, the Countryside Code doesn't apply now, it would have extended that,
a range of other measures, including, for example, the ability to say to an owner, I'm sorry, you cannot own a dog
again because of what's happened,
under a range of other measures. So we'd very much welcome the opportunity as a Welsh government if the new UK, government finds the time to reintroduce that legislation. That would be another tool in the armory here. But the main message I'd have to say is about responsible ownership. Once again, I don't think,
owners,
want to see a case where their dog has to be destroyed because of damage it's caused on a farm and on the livestock.
I don't think any responsible owner,
thinks that their dog is normally capable of this, but the message is very clear. Doesn't matter what breed your dog is, if you let it off the leash, it can do damage in a countryside environment. Countryside code is very clear. Be a responsible owner and we have to keep running that message.
Year after year, working with people so that we protect
the livestock and the sheep and the animals and the horses within this glorious landscape.
And we work with responsible owners to spread that message out there as well. Far and wide.
And just very lastly, Hugh,
the current finds at the moment, what
a lot of farmers I've spoken to, they say it's quite dreadful, you know, it's it's just a
a  pound fine.
would you support increasing
those
kind of punishments?
I think it's always worth looking at the level of punishment. It is a UK reserved matter. So it would be for the sentencing structure from the UK government and the courts. We'd be interested in that to see whether that would have a material difference. But what we do know is really effective is the wider range of tools included in that promotion of responsible ownership, which I have to say in Wales here we are pioneering.
A lot of our work is focused on that responsible ownership piece, getting the message through to people, and it's not a, it's not a once a year issue. It's a day after day work. And,
with, people who have dogs,
when you take a dog and,
we frequently make the point it doesn't come with an instruction book.
Well, maybe it should. What that instruction book is. This is how you should look after your dog. When you're in the countryside, you have responsibilities as an owner. It's not your dog's fault. It's up to you as an owner.
Huw, thanks for your time.

Yeah. Rob Taylor, I'm
the Wales rural wildlife crime coordinator. So I've been in the police now  years. Previously as a serving sergeant, I started the first dedicated rural crime team in North Wales Police, who still exist today. And now we're looking at over  teams across the whole of the UK. So we're in a really good position with regards to our understanding of rural crime across Wales and the UK as well.
I think it's so important that, we have dedicated police officers who understand farming and also understand the issues and, and the crimes that can be committed and the impact it has on the.
you know, that vast experience that you've got there. Tell us about live story and just tell us about the problem that, you know, not just farmers, but you know, rural communities as well that they face with with this,
problem.
Yeah. I as a police officer, going back to , when I started the Rural crime team, I didn't really understand. And I don't think anybody for policing perspective in the UK, the impact that it has, because the police don't have to record these offenses. They investigate them, but they don't have to keep statistics. So when I started the team in , it became very, very quickly apparent that, you know, we were looking in North Wales alone, about  attacks per year, and that's replicated by most rural forces across the UK.
And this is brutal. People don't understand. They think it's just a sheep chase down the field and it's a bit of fun, but it's not. These are sheep that actually, torn to pieces. They they are left with horrendous, life threatening and, death injuries, you know, faces removed, limbs removed, and it's hanging out.
it's the impact of that on the livestock itself.
Is is horrendous, but also the impact on the farmer, not only financially, which is pretty obvious, but emotionally as well.
farmer having to, you know, bring these animals up, rear them and see them brutally killed.
Is horrendously, emotional for them. And particularly if they have to shoot a dog and they have no other option as well, which they're legally entitled to do.
You know, no farmer wants to shoot a dog dead. On that, you know, speaking to a farmer today, it's a huge impact on him, and said it was really upsetting for a number of days. And then on top of that, you have the dog owner. The police actually attend enough to deal with these situations, enough to be the interaction between the farmer on the offender and then the offender themselves having to go to court, possibly,
and facing to find the publicity and also the dog euthanized.
You know, the whole there's no witnesses there. There's no winners of this whatsoever. So it's a problem that I unexpectedly fell into in . And now,  years later, you know, I've been leading the the police response to this in the whole of the UK for quite a number of years now. And the several things that we're looking at doing to, to change, how we approach it and how we can make it
for everyone.
And also, of course, importantly, reduce the numbers that we're seeing.
come back to that. Rob. But
I was just, you know, picking up on the, that the, the police that have to attend these incidents as well. I think
too often maybe you think that, you know, obviously you think about the farmer that has to go through this and else to see it firsthand.
But it's also the police that have to see these in. Right. So these horrific,
incidents in person. And then it's
trying to deal with,
the aftermath of that as well so that, you know, yes, I'll say it's awful. When I was in North Wales Police and,
I led the team, but I would often go out with my officers and they would go into them on a daily basis.
You see, you know, it's it's happening on a daily basis. And you're not just go into a field where there's  or  sheep, you know, there was instances where there was  sheep brutalized and, and, and died and drowned or
chased off cliffs. And then you also witnessed the dog,
shot at the scene or dog shot at the scene, then, to deal with the owner.
because no owner sets their dogs on livestock on purpose. So, you know, some either a dog escapes or the owner doesn't understand and doesn't use a lead or walks in an area. It's completely inappropriate that time of year. And they just don't understand. And that's why we want to introduce this course really soon, to make sure that owners aren't just fined and put before the court and humiliated in some ways and lose their dog, but also that actually prior to that, we give them the option of paying compensation.
And then on actually going on an awareness course for a couple of hours online where
it's not shameful, it's it's something that they can sit through. I've sat through it myself. It's really interesting. It really opens your eyes to it and make sure that you actually don't get involved, entangled into that, that course of going to court and losing your dog.
And, you know, in the end of the day, it makes the farming community happier. And it also makes you happy as a dog owner, that your dog is actually looked after, walk properly and is at no risk of being shot at the scene or killing. If I add a court order.
the educational aspect of it as well.
But you know what you've mentioned there as, as a
ramification of of,
you know, being being involved in an incident like that.
guess from past experience of do you think there's been strong enough,
punishment legislation that no protects farmers and then that gives police the powers to then prosecute? No, I mean, first of all, let's put it this way.
It's a difficult law to implement by the police. It's a  act. It's antiquated. It doesn't cover things like alpacas and llamas, which at farm now. So if they're killed, there's no offense whatsoever.
doesn't give us the power to obtain DNA search warrants. Seizure dogs.
Banning orders is really important. You know, currently, somebody can commit an offense of the dog, use euthanize, and go out and buy ten dogs tomorrow.
So there's numerous, numerous defects in the law because in fairness, it was it was put into place eight years after the Second World War. And it had its purpose at the time, but it certainly hasn't got its purpose now. So
have got a law. It's in. It was going through Parliament last year. It was dropped as part of the Kept Animals Bill, and then it actually resurrected itself in the private member's bill, in January this year.
But the general election actually had that dropped as well. So it's very frustrating, but we're hoping that the current government can ensure that it actually passes through because it's much needed. The police need the power to, ultimately, if it needs a prosecution, if the person is a persistent offender. But the sentence on the fine needs to reflect the crime that's been committed as well.
You know, it's no good.
Summary recently is a  pound fine, an  pound conversation that just does not reflect  sheep and brutalized by two dogs. So we need a change in the law. And I'm really hopeful that we can get that through in the next year or so. It's been a long journey so far, so I'm not holding my breath at the moment, but I'm hoping that we can get through.
We've done all we can to try and get through, but it's in the hands of politicians at the moment in Westminster
because it is a UK law, so it has to pass through Parliament in Westminster.
I was going to say
I guess
you understand, because it's the nature of, of legislation and politics as well. And I know we've had a, a general election recently as well, but it must be very,very frustrating for the, you know, the hard work
into putting together,
a legislation like this and then just to see it,
stumbles.
It's frustrating because I sat for  years into this and I'm really passionate about it, and I've done everything I can. You know, we've also got a DNA project on the go with John Moores University. So I'm really passionate about this. And, you know, I won't stop until. So we get where we need to be to make this better.
I'm not saying we're never going to stop the problem. We're not. But certainly that the situation we're in at the moment, with the amount of livestock being killed and the brutality of it, we need to reduce it. And that's that's important.
Specifically on Wales Road, you know, I know it's
it's not concrete, but how many incidents do you think, roughly taken place?
I would say probably,
upwards of  a year, easily because of several incidents. Numbers, for instance, are not reported because farmers don't want to trouble the police, etc.. So reported incidents that the police actually received are probably about , but you could probably look at I another  or even doubling it. Possibly, but I would say easily upwards of .
But this isn't just a Wales problem. It's reflected right away through the United Kingdom. I've contacted other forces and they have the same issues as well. So it's a huge problem. Every time we meet farmers. It's the one thing, particularly sheep farmers, it's the one thing they rage time and time again with us. So we're doing all we can to to try and alleviate this problem.
Like I say, I'm committed to
getting what I think needs to be done with the experience I've gained over the years.
I think
two key words that
that brought up to me when I speak to farmers, Rob is respect, but then irresponsibility. So there's a lack of, you know, farmers that demand inaccurate respect from people that I use in the countryside.
And then,
you know, ends up with,
livestock ruining. But then there's the responsibility of.
I know sometimes the, the case is that, you know, a dog's escaped from the home or whatever, but I think ultimately there is that
irresponsibility element. And how do you think
we can change that? I think, like I said before, you know, when people buy a dog, they go out and buy a dog and they decide it on probably what they think is the best dog for them.
But there's they don't get any guidance. There's no book, is there to say, you know, this is what you need to do or don't do, and people just don't understand. You know, if you've never owned a dog before and you think the best thing for it to do is take it straight away to a field, let it off and let it run and be happy, you're possibly making a huge mistake because the consequences can be devastating.
So it's about education as well. For me, the law needs we need the law that in the end of the day, because
some offenses that there's no option but to take them to court because, you know, people don't listen. And of course, dogs, once they commit an attack, will repeat and do the same attack again and again and again.
but education plays a huge part as well. And this is why this course we're introducing hopefully will make a huge difference for us in Wales. And then it'll be a success and rolled out across the whole of the UK.
could you tell us a bit more about that to that
the work that you're doing with the university?
To more so university. Sure.
it could be a starting point. So, it's a serious change. The. Yeah, this isn't this this problem is not is not one solution. Solves this problem was numerous solutions. So investigation wise, because they happen in the countryside, there's no CCTV, no witnesses. Usually we need to be able to link a dog with the attack.
So we've got a pilot, on the go at the moment with John Moores University. And we're looking at something. DNA samples from livestock attacks with saliva from dogs to match them. It sounds simple that you could do it, but it's not that simple. So we're looking at the options of how are we going to achieve that.
And that's really important. And then you tie in the new law possibly. And then you tie in as well the responsible dog ownership course. It's really important that the the three come together and maybe in the future as well. People suggest it or we can be creative and come up with more ideas for ourselves as well.
But those are the main three.
I'm looking at the present time that I think will make a big difference, and once they link in together, I think they make a huge difference.
And that
the awareness course,
we compared it to you know it's difficult speed. Yeah. But if you are committed that's the best way to say it. Yeah. And I obviously it's not similar but
you know if I give you my perspective Rob so I've only come into the industry
last year
before then if you'd have said to me what live livestock were in
a member of the public, I would not have I know, I know, I wouldn't
have known I saw you
you know, that educational
perspective of undertaking a course that could
could be a starting point, at least to, I think it's it's about understanding the problem, understand the problem and looking for solutions. And that's what we're trying to do, you know, that's important.
You know, there's all sorts of problems and all sorts of areas of but particularly within policing as well. Although it's it's understanding it isn't, it's understanding all the angles involved in it. And that actually putting all the dots together and working things out and come up with a creative solution that we can look to benefit not only the farming community, but the police and also person.
People are involved and technically branded as the offender. So that's really important.

And that's a wrap.
Thanks to Clive, to Huw, and to Rob for all their time and effort in recording the pod.
Now, just before I leave, I want to stress the importance of a campaign led by Farmers Guardian called Take the Lead. essence, it helps to raise awareness of keeping dogs on a lead at all times when near livestock.
And that's a sentiment that I hear time and time again from farmers that as owners have put their dogs on a lead.
No livestock were an incident would have taken place.
So a little bit more about the campaign, which we run
alongside the National Sheep Association. So it raises awareness, ultimately, of keeping dogs in a lead all time. And we can provide you with  free signs
that you can place around your farm that you can give to your neighbors, that you can give to fellow farmers.
Which again, to stress is the point of place.
And your dog on a lead when near livestock.
So in order to request yours, all you need to do is send a stamped, self-addressed A envelope.
Or we can send it out to you for our address. It's
Farmers Guardian
Unit 4
Fulwood Business Park,
Preston,
Lancashire.
PR2 9NZ
Alternatively, if you want to talk to a reporter like myself
about concerns following a livestock were an incident.
If you're concerned that a livestock worrying incident could occur,
then simply get in touch with me.
at Chris.Brayford@farmersguardian.com
So thanks again to all our listeners.
and to our guests.
And we really hope that this episode's shared an important message
about livestock or an incident, and what steps could be taken
moving forward into the future.
So for now,
have a fantastic week
and let's catch up again next time.
Goodbye.