Ag in my Land: New Zealand farmer focuses on regen, people and opening the farm gates

Ag in my Land is a Farmers Guardian series which looks at farming across the globe, and for the first time ever, we have turned it into a podcast. In this episode, online editor Emily Ashworth talks to Greg Hart who farming in Hawkes Bay in New Zealand at Mangarara Farm. With a huge focus on stripping the business back and focusing on regeneration of the land, he has taken the farm in a whole new direction - including a partnership with Air New Zealand which enabled him to plant thousands of native trees. From the soil to the farm's mainstay which is the livestock, Greg is taking every opportunity he can to excite others about the world of agriculture. 

Transcript

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You're listening to the Farmers Guardian podcast. I. Those. So do you want to just tell me, Greg, about you first? Because. Are you from. Are you from a farming background or are you from a farming family? Yeah. So I grew up on a, farm in the South Island, about an hour south of Christchurch. on a farm that my grandparents lived on. And my parents. And then, you know, I always wanted to be a farmer. and then going through sort of teenage has had a bit of a back injury and doctors sort of told me that you probably won't be able to work on a farm. And so after finishing school, I, worked for a couple of years and I got a degree in agriculture. So, yeah, give myself some options and with those qualifications. But my back came, right. And, I did work and a farm consultancy firm and some, professional lines before traveling overseas for a couple of years. you know, spent some time in Africa and also, a rugby season that up in Yorkshire was just, just out of. Oh, okay. I got to travel around and, had a lot of good times there and a lot of fun. and then, back to New Zealand and a couple of more years and sort of office based jobs before an opportunity came up to buy the farm alongside where my parents, had shifted from the South Island to the North Island while I was overseas. And so, yeah, the opportunity came to buy a bit of land beside them. And my parents helped me into into that. And over that time, I met my wife, Rachel, and we got married, and she was a local girl from, from the Hawke's Bay area. And so we came back to sort of her home territory and started farming alongside my parents. And so you probably want to know a little bit about the farm. So it's, where 1500 acres and, it's a mixed sort of flat rolling and steeper hill country mix. So it's a really nice mix of land classes, which, you know, keeps it all very interesting. we've got an 80 acre, like, right out in front of our house and, you see, has been largely cleared of native forest. But we were really fortunate that we've got 30 acres of old farm still on the farm. And, yeah, we talk about how we've developed and planted a lot more trees, but, you know, you having that base is quite, quite rare around these parts as, as the land is largely been denuded of trees and, what's planted back is exotic trees around here. So, that's nice to have that indigenous forest on the farm. And the farm is, Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. So we're basically trying to make sure there's a bit of, Yeah. So we're farming sheep and beef and, and being on this journey of what's now called regenerative agriculture. And, so we've gone from at one stage running 3000 breeding ewes on the farm to now having about 30. but we're currently farming about 750 cattle. And we can get into just the whole philosophy around, how it's easier for us to, to manage cattle under a holistic plain grazing scheme than it is for sheep. But, we also have a whole lot of diversity on the farm. we've got an eco lodge, accommodation and, you know, a few chickens and pigs and, yeah, a lot, lots of diversity going on. Just, some various sort of different income streams, which has been really good when you go through all ups and downs of farming. That's it. And we get onto that sort of diversity diversification, topic in a minute because it's quite similar over here in terms of farmers finding, other income streams to bring that, finance back to the farm. But in terms of livestock, then what do you actually run then in terms of breeds? Yeah. So we are basically farming Angus, Aberdeen Angus cattle. We have 100 breeding cows. And so we keep the progeny from our cattle and we buy and heifers, females from our neighbor has a big period of 400 breeding cows and our core business really is supplying beef to butchers. And, we have a mob of just under 100 dairy heifer grazers. So that's really, again, diversifying our income. they belong to a dairy farm, and we just raise them for one year, get them in calf, and then they go back to the dairy farm. But, you know, it's just a steady income stream. So it's a bit of diversity. And at this stage we just buy and lambs and fatten and finish them to prime and then sell them. back into the market. so that's, that's the core of our business. And in terms of, you know, I really want to talk about how you mentioned regeneration before. Can you talk me through some of, you know, like your core farming principles and how you actually run things on the farm because, you know, that's a term, obviously, that we, you know, use heavily in the UK as well. And, and actually, you know, subsidies, government subsidies are, very much now leaning towards sustainable environmental farming. So if you could tell me a little bit about how you do things and, if there's any actually, you know, government support for you as well in terms of what you do, that'd be great. Yeah, sure. Well, it's been a long and winding journey and it began for us there probably a bit over 20 years ago. And like you as a young mother, thinking about, you know, the world we're going to leave for our children and then particularly, you know, from my wife's perspective, what food, you know, you're giving to our children because you think a lot deeper, you know, you about the next generation and so that that was probably the beginning of a journey for us. And then also learning a whole lot of, sustainability issues. And, you know, I guess particularly a little country like New Zealand down the bottom of the earth of the planet, we rely on bringing in phosphate fertilizers from Morocco, which is basically is what sustains our pastoral agriculture here in New Zealand. We used to get, phosphate fertilizer from Nauru and Pacific Island, but that's been dug out and basically, you know, left for ruins and, and now we're having to bring in that phosphate from the other side of the planet. And to me, that just doesn't seem a sustainable, system to base, you know, the production of food and the cornerstone of the New Zealand economy is as passive, like agriculture. And so that's that's sort of set us on a journey for trying to find more sustainable ways to maintain our production, and then also just learning more about, you know, environmental issues, climate change. And a really big one for me has been, understanding, you know, the role that energy plays in every aspect of our life. of course, lots of fossil fuel fuels involved getting that phosphate fertilizer from Morocco down to a farm in New Zealand before it's flowing onto a whole country. And know our whole system doesn't work without cheap, abundant fossil fuels. And it appears to me that, you know, in the not too distant future, it's not going to be so readily available or as cheap. And so everything, everything changes. So how do we adapt? when that time comes? And yeah, the other thing is about regenerating the land. You know, there's a biodiversity crisis and how do we start to incorporate bringing back, you know, trees and birds and insects and, and try and restore balance between our productive agriculture and the needs of people, but also understanding that, that biodiversity, net nature as also, essential for our survival and our wellbeing. So talk to me about, because obviously, you know, you mentioned numbers have been cut quite dramatically on farm. Talk me through that thought process. Yeah. Well, I guess part of that has been a big tree planting program. And so I was back in, 2000 and like 2007. Yeah, I realized we needed more trees on the farm. And farm budgets don't have a whole lot of spare cash for buying a whole lot of trees. So I approached in New Zealand at that time, because we, we were using a visa card. Yeah, that generated eight points as part of our spend. And while realizing that we should be flying less, you know, due to climate change reasons and a whole lot of friends that were flying with business were getting a whole lot of airports more than they needed. So I contacted in New Zealand, said, well, was there an opportunity to, for people to swap their airports for a tree planting program? And we'd happily plant them on their farm and they said, no, but they would just starting a new initiative through the New Zealand Environment Trust. And they were looking for a project. And so we were just right place, right time. And we had got a budget for three years and over that time planted 85,000 trees. The majority of them are New Zealand native trees. And, we planted about 50 acres, you know, 20 hectares and items. And so we have been, transferring some of that pastoral land, albeit state, road and, yeah, it doesn't really grow a whole lot of pasture, you know, through, through our dry summers and, by planting trees and the other trade off with that is that our farm is now open to the public. And so, which is something that we wanted to do because we think that, you know, so many of the issues that we face now is just through that loss of connection, people no longer understanding where the food's coming from, how it's grown, and then how connection to nature. So, it's been a really, really good relationship with the New Zealand and, and it's been ongoing in the farm, still open to, to the public, and we get between 1500 and 2000 visitors a year to the farm, and they're free to wander out to see the trees, but they're also experienced the lodge and, and see the animals. So, so, so that accounts for some of the, change in stock numbers. But really the other big one is moving from sheep to cattle, and that's just allowed us to, there is a system, devised by Allan Savory from originally from Zimbabwe and his whole system of holistic management. And, you know, Allan was observing the the big plains, the big, herds of buffalo and or both buffalo and and Africa and, and, over millennia, those animals yet created some of the deepest, richest source in the world through massive mobs of, ruminant animals constantly moving to pasture, trampling down manure, eating, and the whole system just worked and evolved. And so that is what we're trying to mirror now, just with those, those bigger animals, eating taller pasture, than in Europe and going back and onto, the trampled pasture which absorbs, you know, a lot of the nutrients. And it's just, you know, slowly taking into the soil. And that's a system that's working really well for us as we try and reduce our need on, on that fertilizer coming from the other side of the planet and just creating those natural systems and using that and more natural sort of grazing management and the system while it came work for sheep, you know, sheep take a bit more management. They need better fencing. And so it's just been easier for us while we get to grips with this, you know, changing grazing management, to use cattle because just a single wire with a good shot going through it. you know, cattle are really easy to manage. And I find this so interesting and, and I, I'm a bit of a history, geek. So I love this idea of, you know, tech, for example, here in the UK, we saw a huge, price hike in fertilizer. so, you know, farmers were having to find alternative ways and actually, I don't know what it's like in New Zealand, and I'm hoping you can tell me, but there is this sort of, you can feel it like a movement going on, like an undercurrent almost of, you know, a, a big group of, farmers that are almost ten in the cut back in using these, more old fashioned ways of, you know, mixed farming principles. Obviously. Now, a post war, we had to, you know, the land was obviously absolutely hammered. Production had to go up. But there's this real feeling that we're actually turning the clock back. Yeah, but you're using a whole lot of modern technology, you know, that that I like it. But, you know, it's been so easy over recent decades, to basically, you know, and this is a philosophy of holistic management and things, but that humans seem to do is so good at treating the symptom but not the cause. And holistic management tries to dig at what is the root cause of this problem. because for now, it's easy just to go to town and buy your solution to that problem out of the bag, whether it be a drug to give your animals or something chemical or something to put on your land, again, you just you're just treating the the symptoms but not the cause. And so we're trying to get to those root causes and be proactive and, and stay ahead of the problems and, and yeah try and you know really you know generate health into the system. Yeah. Of of the land and soil and obviously that flows through into the animal. So what's your farm be classed as like organic. Would it have like organic status or anything like that. No, no we haven't gone down that track. primarily because my main driver was around sustainability and getting fossil fuels out of production. Yeah. It's interesting. New Zealand, you know, we are far away from, you know, the markets and, and we to import all our petrol, diesel and oil. We have had an oil refinery in New Zealand that was processing, you know, the oil but the, it's been closed down in the last couple of years. And so yeah, I think we're at real risk of potentially being one of the first Western developed countries, whatever. and the world to, you know, to go through fuel shortages and so, so yeah, how can we continue to thrive, you know, when, when that time comes? Because I think it's inevitable. It's just a matter of when. And and so so that's been our main driver and but also trying to make informed decisions as far as chemical use. And we, we probably could be certified organic. We do basically manage organically. But I guess yeah, we do have those tools and toolbox if required. And our whole relationship, we've been inspired by an American farmer, Joe. It's a and his thing is it's just about being open and transparent. And you know, his farm is open to the public too. And and our whole initial goal was really to, to build that sort of community of support around the farm and people that buy our produce to know us, know the farm, know how we operate. And so those sort of standards and certifications are really only required, you know, with is, a distance between the consumer and the producer. And, you know, it's, it's a, it's a certification of guarantee of, of a standard. But, we'd like to be building that, that basically trust is our, you know, certification with our end users, consumers. Yeah. It's it's, it's exactly the same here. And actually, you know, it sometimes feels like, as an industry, for example, that we're actually doing all we can to really shout about farming, shout about what we're actually doing to help tell, you know, let people in. but the flip side of it, is actually that people you know, they do want to know, but actually the so constrained by price. Yeah. You know, prices at the top of the miss, you know, priority list. Yeah. For everybody that's really tough. And and this I don't have a solution for that. And we're talking, at a large last night we had a fertilizer company who's investing heavily in the environment and and trying to help farmers, understand how a lot of, environmental factors and support and stuff like that. But, you know, shaking beef farming in New Zealand is going through a tough time at the moment. And so many people are just basically the cheapest thing. And and that's that's really sad, I guess is, you know, times get tighter. A lot of those good environmental initiatives get bypass because, you know, it does lead some supporting. Somebody has to pay for it somewhere. And yeah, it's it's it's tough. We have, something called Open Farm Sunday in this country and it's been running for about 18 years. Have you heard of it. Yeah we have. And and a good friend of, of mine, started the, the open farms in New Zealand and it's. Yeah, it's been pretty well received. Oh, fab. Do you take part in that? Great. I have, yeah. Yeah yeah, yeah, it's a great idea I think welcoming thousands of people on one day, to farms across the country. it's quite an emotional thought, actually, isn't it? Because, you know, we don't get to actually share that journey with people very, very often. So. Yeah. Yeah. And it's good. That's good for farmers to, to to be appreciated. And I don't know what it's like in the UK. But yeah, there has been a perception that, yeah, there's a growing rural urban divide and at sometimes it feels like that in the media, but I think like recent surveys have actually shown that basically, you know, town people do support farmers and appreciate, you know, what we're trying to do. And, and it goes back to that, that, economics of it again is that it's, it's, it's tough for some people who are struggling financially. Yeah. Yeah. Can we quickly talk about, climate and the weather because, this is a question that I always ask in this, again, my London series, because, you know, we have had the worst, season of rain that we've seen in a very, very long time. It's been the biggest rainfall, in a very long period of time. you know, lambing was a tough, a tough time for us in the UK. It's really, really, really, put a lot of pressure on on farmers. What's the climate like where you are? it's changeable. We just. Yeah. Yeah, we just we just came off by far the wettest year we've ever recorded. last year, I was off the charts, including a massive cyclone at our region that, you know, number of people lost their lives and, you know, flooding the valleys and what have you. So it's just the extremes, are becoming more extreme and happening more often. And, you know, that last year we just year was, yeah, two years. We had sort of two years of drought. And now I've had two years of extreme wet. So it's just, yeah, there's no average anymore. It's kind of all over the place and just having to deal with all that variation, which is. Yeah, adding, adding more challenges. And is it just, you and your family who work on the farm, Greg, or is there a team of you? so we have one, stock manager on the farm. So we've got a young lad from Scotland working for us for a year at the moment. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. So, He's great. He's been up for dinner tonight at our place, and, Yeah, really, really enjoying having him here. And we have, offers from all around the world. Come and stay with us. We've just had a French couple left a couple of days ago, and so we get lots of young, Susie Astic energy coming and going through the farm, and that's that's really cool. And, and, you know, again, that's, really restores your faith in humanity. There's just so many good young people out there. And we do see quite a lot coming from UK or Europe. Young people who no longer want to do that. 9 to 5. Yeah, bullshit job kind of thing. Who actually looking to do something, of meaning and of being, doing something positive for the world. And so, yeah, we do meet lots of those people and yeah, it's great, great having them over here. That was me once. Yeah. Did you travel to New Zealand? Not New Zealand. And, you know, it's one of. I don't like to have regrets, but it's definitely one of those things in my life where I think I was in Australia. So why why did I not just do it? Well, I could, but my husband, he worked on, a really large sheep farm in, Western Australia. And then when I came out, I, obviously did a bit with him, but yeah, it's one of my pick me moments that I didn't just do it while I had the chance because I think New Zealand. Yeah. Somewhere that. Yeah, I'll take that. Yeah. So in terms of it, in terms of labor, and you know, the agricultural workforce, we actually see quite a big problem here in terms of, getting people into the industry to, to work, but also staff retention. Yeah. Is that something that you do you see this see over there. Yeah. I mean I think particularly for the dairy industry and New Zealand. we have a lot of like Filipino people working on dairy farms and New Zealand and yeah with within the horticulture center, and Hawke's Bay, there's quite a big apple producing area and vineyards and, and we rely on a lot on, Pacific Island people coming in and working on those, farms and orchards. And so, yeah, it's, it's that as an issue again, I think, yeah, we're quite fortunate because we are in that sort of region space and, you know, have made a commitment to, you know, trying to be part of making a better world. And, and younger people are drawn to that more. And so, yeah, we, we do find people. but yeah, again, the labor market is tight. Yeah. Right. We've been talking about the same thing, actually, in terms of using this, idea of sustainability and region to, to actually hook new people in because there's so much opportunity, there's so much science behind it, like, it's so interesting and it's hard to it's hard to flip that image of what we actually do as farmers. And I mean, and if I could and plug, another, organization that I follow in America called the Post Carbon Institute. And a couple of years ago, they wrote a white paper called The Future Is Rural. And again, you know, if we're going to get fossil fuels or reduce the amount of fossil fuels, it takes to produce our food, it's going to need more people living on the land. And so, yeah, and there is a growing movement again, of young people who do want to get back to the land and, and live more sustainably. And yeah, there's this opportunities and there's going to be a need because ultimately, I think, you know, when we talk about climate change and energy economy, that's going to hit us hardest. And, food and, in places in the UK and relying on food imports from all around the world. Yeah, I think that's definitely going to need more people back on the land, growing food. And I, I do follow closely, the debate between George Monbiot and his book Regina and Chris Weisz and saying no to a farm free future. And I'm firmly and the, Chris Weisz, you know, eco agriculture, future. And I think, you know, that's that's a future that I want to be part of. And I'd like to pass on to future generations. yeah. So, sometimes I wonder, worry if these, techno optimists actually do come, right? I may just end up eating gluten some bubble city and, perhaps just just live our lives virtually on a screen, and, that's not living. So. Yeah, I think let's let's keep nature and real food and farming going. Yeah. And I think, I think that, you know, half of that comes back to as well what we've just been talking about, which is just letting people see what this is all about. And they can see for themselves and then make their own decisions on it. So yeah, let's get it. Like, you know, if you can get kids with their hands in the soil and wiggly worms and, I love it. And so we've just got to reconnect the all again and, and, yeah, I think it's essential. Absolutely. And just, that this is something that I am hugely, hugely passionate about in terms of getting kids involved from a really early age, because that's when you're going to that's when you're going to hook them, you know. What is it like in terms of, you know, we don't have any form of agriculture on the curriculum at all. You would have to get to the end of, high school when you're 15 or 16 and almost find your own way. There's no kind of input in terms of school. You would then have to decide to go and study agriculture for yourself. Yeah, well, there are schools in New Zealand that do have agriculture as part of their curriculum. And that is that is, you know, right through high school you can take agriculture. we were supposed to have a school group come and visit this week. They, they postpone because of the rain. But, yeah. So, so, you know, we do have a small population compared to the UK and, and lots of families, but there's still a lot of kids growing up in New Zealand that don't experience a farm or farm life. And so, you know, that's part of encouraging people to, to get back onto the land and but there are opportunities to do it. But again, probably the bigger the city, the further removed you are from it. Yeah. Yeah. do we want to just talk a little bit about I've got, you know, the article that you sent me to have a look over it mentioned, this aggregate. Yeah. So is that something that you helped to establish? it's in the process of. We're not there yet. So an agri hood and, the idea there is to create a farm based community, with people having their business enterprise being and some sort of regenerative business, and it could be land based. And, you know, we have, for example, a small dairy on the farm, which at the moment isn't being used because I don't have the time to do it, but, you know, somebody could jazz up the dairy again, be making cheese or something like that. And then, you know, somebody else could take the byproducts of or the waste products from that business and use it for feeding pigs or something and creating that little business there and just, to create the circular economy and also to, just to create a whole lot more, livelihoods off of the farm because our farm at, Yeah. 1500 acres, it was run conventionally. It's really only probably a one family farm. Yeah. At the moment we have two of us working, plus my wife doing the office work, but, you know, that's because we've got a large accommodation and yeah, we're marketing our own produce and so of adding value along the way. But yeah, there's so much more we could be doing on the land and providing more, livelihoods for a whole lot more people. So and again, if more people are going to have to go back and live on the land in the future, then I guess it's a bit of an experiment of how that could happen. And I've been really excited just in the last couple of weeks, I came across King's clear, estates in Britain, and I think that. So I'm looking forward to catching up with him and their, pet shop about, you know, just creating businesses and creating the circular economy. Yeah, I think that's brilliant. And, yeah, we want to be doing something similar to that. I love that how there's these little pockets all over the world that just, you know, in terms of farming, just connect. Yeah. I think that's wonderful. And I think that's what it's all about. I've actually got some stuff on, King's clear that I can send you guys, so remind me to do that. Right. Because I think the other interesting thing is you kind of think, like there's nothing new under the sun because you all. I've had this thing brewing this idea for quite some time about how we can create this little regenerative farm community. And we had a, English farmer come and visit our farm about a month or so ago. And I was telling him about the agri hood and what we're going to do. And then he said, oh, yeah, you know, they're doing that in England or the UK. Okay. What? And so yeah, there's there's just yeah, there's little pockets and it's all coming together. And in terms of, you know, the atmosphere in farming where you are in your country, is there a general kind of positive outlook because, you know, it's it's quite hard over here because it's almost like two sides of the coin. We've got loads of exciting opportunities. There's people who are really kind of, you know, running at these new incentives and looking to change and adapt or tweak the businesses so that they can futureproof them and they're really excited by it. But obviously, on the flip side of that, you know, there's the conversation, for example, that, you know, the fact that farmers can't just make a living off just farming. and also there's a lot of political uncertainty. it's it's quite difficult to gauge, actually, what the. Yeah, the outlook is. What is it like over there for you? that's pretty tough. A lot of, shaken by farmers are doing it really tough at the moment. You know, I think they've said that, you know, well, over 90% of shaken Bay farmers won't make a profit this year. yeah. The returns are down, particularly for sheep and, and the really sad thing is that the, the price of wool, you know, doesn't cost cover the cost of shearing it at the moment. And that's probably one of the best, most sustainable products on the planet. I think that's really sad. And those guys are doing it tough. And then I guess particularly older farmers and we are probably like all around the world. I mean, I'm 57. I'm probably the average age for a farmer, I guess, nowadays. And, and yeah, with a lot of regulations coming in, it's overwhelming. And the other big change that's happened in New Zealand over the last couple of years, and I hear it's happening in Wales and that environment is carbon farming. And, there's been a lot of land sold to it was, you know, overseas companies that are just planting pine trees in a, exotic tree, which is just about a weed in some parts of our country. But, the returns that are getting from carbon is just far exceeds, you know what you can often shake and pay for, especially when you're losing money. And so for a lot of families, it's just been easier to sell up and take the money and probably retire very comfortably. But, you know, it's, to the demise of those rural communities and, you know, the local schools and a lot of stuff, as, as farm guys just get shot and planted and trees. So, yeah, people are doing it tough. I mean, people hang in the air. I guess the other thing is, you know, New Zealand for of the 1980s, removed all subsidies from our, export, you know, land, beef, agricultural and New Zealanders, you know, after the initial shock and getting used to that. Yeah. I don't think anybody would want to have subsidies back again, I think. Yeah, we're quite proud. Proud that we can sort of stand on our own two feet and, but having said that, you know, we are going through a bit of a tough time at the moment. And, and also, of course, the, the imports, the that fertilizer and fuel. And I guess the killer is also interest rates at the moment. You're probably paying, you know, close to 9% interest on your mortgage on the farm at the moment. And that's just to qualify for people with debt. Yeah, absolutely. I think, this is why it's good to do things like this, actually, because, sometimes you can feel quite alone continuing what you're doing, especially in farming. So actually, to hear that there's other people not just in your area around the world actually, you know, going through these similar, similar struggles. you know, we need to do more of this because actually we're all in it together. Yeah. I mean, I've seen it as a, you know, because, you know, people need food and, yeah, that's that's just, I guess, giving that food to people at a price that they can afford, as really tough. And I mean, I love the the American cried Joe sell it and quoted it to me some time ago just saying. Yeah. You know, in the 1960s or whenever, you know, about 10% of the take home pay or GDP was spent on health and sickness and 20% was spent on food. That's flat now with us spending in America, you know, 20% on their health and sickness, and 10% on food. And so, yeah, food. Food is our medicine. And, we need that to keep us healthy as well. Yeah. Absolutely. Agree. I would like to end on a positive. What do you love about what you do? Great. What do you love about the farm where you live? And you know how you're doing it? Yeah. It is so stimulating. And, you know, I really do believe that, you know, we're super lucky. And, you know, I just appreciate the privileged position that we're that we're in to be, you know, the caretakers of the land and also to be, you know, providing health and nutrition to the people. And and then it's just the space that we're in. And I think, you know, again, all around the world, you know, with a regenerative mindset, which to me, you know, regenerative is just basically, you know, putting life at the center of every decision and action as, as it's just uplifting at stimulating. There's always so much more to learn. That's, you know, I see it so many times, but the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. And so at a super exciting times, people are going to need food. The earth needs regenerating, we need more biodiversity, more trees. And, yeah, that's a great time to be alive. I really do hope that you enjoyed being immersed in the New Zealand way of life for about half an hour, then I really do love hearing from farmers around the world because as we mentioned, many of you are facing the same issues but also have the same passions. So if you want to see some pictures from Greg's farm, you can head to the Farmers Guardian website and read his full story there. But that's it for me this week, and Farmers Guardian will be back again next week with another fantastic episode. Thank you for listening. And goodbye for now.