Ahead of this year's NFU elections, Farmers Guardian's news and business team spoke to the candidates standing to be president, deputy president and vice-president.
Tom Bradshaw, David Exwood, Rachel Hallos, Michael Oakes, Thomas Binns, Matt Culley and Mark Jeffrey share their views on Red Tractor, member engagement and diversity.
Ahead of this year's NFU elections, Farmers Guardian's news and business team spoke to the candidates standing to be president, deputy president and vice-president.
Tom Bradshaw, David Exwood, Rachel Hallos, Michael Oakes, Thomas Binns, Matt Culley and Mark Jeffrey share their views on Red Tractor, member engagement and diversity.
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We'll be hearing first from Tom and he'll be followed by David. Excellent. The current vice president who is standing for the role of deputy chair. He'll be followed by Rachel Harlow, Michael Oakes and Thomas Baines, who are all standing for both deputy President and Vice President. And that will be followed by Matt Calais and Mark Jeffrey, who are both standing for the role of vice president. Let's hear from Tom, first of all. Members are concerned about NFU communications and engagement with members, both active and not active. How are you looking to improve that and expand membership if you're elected as NFU president? The engagement with our members, both those that are actively involved and grassroots members, is absolutely essential. They are the NFU and without those members on the ground, we don't exist as we need to focus on how we engage at the county level, really driving that level of engagement. We've got some really good examples. We've got other areas where we can do better, but also the new CRM will enable us to make sure that all of those farmers, young farmers that are involved within farm businesses, that may be the farm manager, it could be children of the person in charge, that business can be on our system and can receive the communications from the NFU. And so it will make it much easier. It's not going to be a silver bullet, but it's something that we have to get up and running and we fully recognize that if we don't communicate better, then that challenge is going to continue and probably grow and moving on to Red Tractor now, so some farmers have criticized the communication and diffuse handling of Red Tractor. How were you going to rebuild that trust and what's your future vision for Red Tractor and Farm Assurance as a whole? We're rebuilding. The trust is absolutely essential because there's no doubt about it over the last six months. But I go much further back than that. Version five was the real tipping point where I think the strength of feeling amongst the membership of Red Tractor was very, very clear. They need to be listened to because it is essential that farmers understand why farm insurance is required. But also the farm assurance works for farmers that it delivers value back to their farm businesses. We can't underestimate the challenges that the supply chain are going to put on those businesses producing food, and as farmers we have to recognize that. But it must work at a farm level. I often say that we have an analog system in the digital world that the inspection burden has just grown and grown and grown, but it doesn't actually make the food that we produce any safer. So it needs it across. And so the ground up review, which is now taking place, we've announced a joint review with HDP, but then that needs to be acted upon. At no point collecting the views of thousands of farmers and then not acting upon and listening to what we've heard. So I think it's going to be a really interesting period. I do think the Farm assurance is something that we, you know, we need for the future, but we need to understand what's required in our export markets, what's required in that domestic market. Is it a point of difference that's going to add value or is it a type market protectionist? And I think there's a lot of questions there, and it would be wrong to give the answers today because it really is essential that we do listen to those that feed into the consultation if elected as NFU president, what are you looking to change or influencing government policy and how do you hope to do that? It's absolutely pivotal in the run up to the election, Rachel. Food production has been taken for granted, Farmers have been taken for granted and we I believe that the next six months are going to really shape the future of the next decade If governments think that they will have food, if they want, continue without the farmers producing it, they are very, very naive. Relying on imports at this time of geopolitical uncertainty I think is completely wrong. It's completely complacent. So I think working with all political parties in the run up to the election, we need to get commitments about the importance of domestic food production. We are unique in having 70 million consumers living on an island. We have a wonderful climate for producing food, however challenging that is, and it is changing. But we need government to recognize and prioritize domestic food production as part of national security. You mentioned about that focus on food production and getting the government to prioritize food production. But a concern for members is how do the NFU strike that balance between environment and food? How do they get that balance right? So there is a balance to be found between food production and the environment. But at the moment it's gone too far. If we're not very careful with end up living in a great green oasis here, we'll offshore food production to other countries around the world and it be a case of out of sight, out of mind, as it has been for the rest of manufacturing across the country. That is not acceptable. The government has got very ambitious, legislated environmental targets. They cannot be delivered within the current budget. The £2.4 billion. We are asking for £4 billion which will enable delivery of those budgets, but a third of those targets, but a third of that budget will also go towards stability and productivity payments to make sure that food production is prioritized and that balance can be recognized. We want diversity now, and that was a key topic that was brought up at the Oxford Farming Conference and a key topic in agriculture as a whole at the moment. When you look at the NFU candidate line up that diversity is not there is that something that concerns you and what message does that send out to the wider industry and how do how does the NFU improve that? So I think we have to make sure that the nephew is welcoming for everybody so so that anyone feels they can be part of our council sessions, that they will be welcomed into the NFU and there are no barriers in place because I think having making sure that we don't just talk about equality and diversity, but we actually deliver it is essential for the future. And so yes, the candidate list, you can you highlight the challenges that the reason, the diversity that we would like to see. I think that's more representative of the industry as well. And as an industry, we need to make sure that we have the very brightest and the very best and that there are no barriers to entry into our industry. So it's something that we are taking seriously. There is again, there is no silver bullet to this, but we have to recognize the challenge and take that challenge head on, which is something we are going to be doing. I mean, all of our boards, all of our council members will be going through training around equality, diversity and inclusion. And that's the starting point. Again, it's not going to transform things overnight. But if you recognize the problem, we recognize it's something we can do better and we make sure the NFU is welcoming to all. And that's a great starting point. And finally, you are going unchallenged as president in these NFU elections that has been criticized by some members. What would you say to those members and would you have preferred to have been challenged? I've been challenged at every election within the NFU from Cotswold Chair through Vice President and deputy President. It's something that's outside my control, but I know I can't determine who is coming forward for the election. So it really is down to everybody else. I say for me, because I've come through those challenges of the past, I'm not concerned about it. But we do want to have a strong list of candidates coming through for all roles in the Nephew. I think we're seeing now that deputy president or vice president, there's a there are a list of candidates. There are some very, very credible candidates that have come forward. So I don't think democracy is dead, but obviously it is outside of my control who chooses to challenge me. Joining me now is David Wood, the current NFU vice president, running to be the next deputy president. David, members are concerned about and if you communications and engagement with members, both active and non active, how are you looking to imprison also expand membership if you are elected as deputy president? So I think we've been far too reactive in our communications. Like me, I think we need to be much more on the front foot and engaging with members and the media and in a much more timely and proactive way. I look at you in terms of increasing membership. We've got to listen to them, listen to them more, listen to what they need, what their priorities, how we can make them successful, profitable businesses be relevant to their business success. I think that's the key in a changing world. Red tractor for some farmers have criticized communication and the EU's handling of red tractor. How are you going to rebuild that trust? And what's your future vision for Red Tractor and Farm Assurance as a whole? So again, I think we haven't listened well enough to our members on Red Tractor. We've got to to to engage, launch. I don't want to sort of predict what those reviews will say, but I think they're the right thing to be doing. I'm pretty sure they're going to come back. And one thing they're not going to say is everything's fine and nothing needs to change. There will be change coming and we will change probably how we do the inspections, how we comply with that kind of audit burden. And then also in the needs of each sector, we will probably have a world where what insurance looks like for each sector will be different in the future. If you are elected as deputy president, what are you looking to change or influence in government policy and how? I think the first thing is better balance between food and the environment and government policy. We have a department and it's almost entirely driven by legislated environmental targets, and that needs to have much more recognition of the value of food and food production in the UK. Yes, alongside the environment that balance in policy. But I think that is the primary thing. And whether it's the National Action Plan on pesticides, whether it's in SFI, whether it's in a trade policy, whatever it is, we need that balance there right across the board. You sort of answered my next question, but if you can give a bit more detail, really how are you going to strike that balance between food and environment? It's something that members are concerned about. And how are you going to overcome the challenges that that throws to you to convince politicians to find that balance? So clearly, let's take SFI. It's a great scheme. It's been well received and people are entering it in large numbers. Great. But there just are not enough options that sit around profitable, sustainable food production as well as doing good things for the environment. And I, you know, and we had 50 new options announced at the Oxford Farming Conference. That's great. But very, very few of them were was sit around productive food production and waste. The danger is we're going to see a real trend away from food production. And what we want is that balance. So that's a great example of what that looks like in reality for farmers. Diversity is a really key focus in agriculture right now. It was a key theme at the Oxford Farming Conference, but when you look at the NFU candidate line up for this election, it doesn't really reflect a diverse industry. What message do you think this sends out to the broader industry and how do you think we can improve this going forward? So diversity is absolutely key. I am very clear that we need as an organization to appeal to everyone. We need people, young people, diverse people in every way, and they need to be feel welcomed and important to our organization and given every opportunity to engage with us. And so I know, for example, I have a chance at a young age to get into farming. It's really important we listen to the voice of young people and give them that voice in what we do in our policy. Because, you know, in a changing industry and a changing times, you've got to appeal to everyone inside and outside the industry that they are the people that will take us forward. And my view will look different. And I'm very supportive of getting more women in agriculture. Again. That is changing rapidly and changing the way we work. Changing the conversation about what's normal so that it's quite usual to take to to have, you know, a really mixed workforce in every respect. That's what success looks like for the future of farming. members are concerned about communication within the NFU and engagement with members of both active and non active. And how are you looking to improve that sort of communication and to possibly expand the membership? I see membership, communication is very different to communication with the wider industry and very different communication with the general public. And I think what we need to do is identify what message is that we're sending to to which group of people. So if we're having different conversations and we need to change the language when it comes to member communication, it needs to be so it's called it really is as simple as it needs to be. The language that we get is pertinent to us and it's what we do. Very different to what you guys want to hear, very different. It's what the general public wants to hear. So I think we need to focus on that. And I think once we start having those conversations, clearer conversations in neutral language, we can get out into the counties. The review of the organization has taken place. So the idea is that counties K you make the communications better, you get the first base meetings going again. You actually get in front of farmers and you don't just talk. You start listening and you start reacting and understanding what they're going through and what's happening to them. I think the only way you do that is by getting on the road, And sort of staying on the communication line though, because it's been one of the main criticisms with the red tractor debacle you call it. And I mean, what what would you say about the the the way the the unions communicated throughout that? And because Tom and Minette last week both spoke about rebuilding trust, How do you see that happening and what are your views on on farm assurance, Yeah, there's two different things going on there. I think the farm assurances one bit out on one side, communication about what the whole red tax thing is. It's been messy. Let's, let's not kid, anybody's been messy. I'm not entirely certain why, if I'm honest. I've been on the periphery of it. I've not been involved in the middle of it as a just as a council member speaking on behalf of my members, I guess there's a whole host of reasons behind just to to why the comms maybe wasn't as fast as agile, perhaps, as it could have been, or a straight talking. Maybe I'm just from Yorkshire and we just say Azaz. I don't know. Is that, is that me? Is that just I want to save it? So I think we've got a whole piece of work there to be more transparent with the membership and not be afraid of just saying, Azaz, we've got nothing to hide because I don't think the NFU has anything to hide personally. From what I know, I don't believe that. So let's just just be honest assurance. Abdul of farmer member meetings of legs and I think I can count on one hand the amounts of people that disagree with assurance. I think he's how he's delivered. I think he's how he stood. I think he's how he is, how these sections take place. I think there's a whole host of things going on there. We just need to go back to basics. Remember why it was put there in the first place. in terms of government policy, what kind of thing would you be looking to influence and how would you go about that? the key thing that we all need to be looking at is profitable businesses. And I don't think there is any one key piece of policy that makes that happen. I think there's a jigsaw puzzle going on right now. I think there's a bit of fumbling about going on when it comes to policy as well. And I think there's some unintended consequence answers as a result of policy that seems to be finding out right now. So for me, I there is one thing for me, everything has to revolve around farming, farming be profitable. And you know what? I don't care where that money comes from. It's down to the individual business to decide what makes their business profitable. And it's about the NFU going and understanding that and taking that message to government to formulate the policy that sits around it. So it's not one thing, it's a whole bunch of things and it's about making businesses profitable so they can deliver whatever is required for for the rest of the country, for the nation. how would you overcome the challenges that farmers face with that? How would you advise? What's your advice to for balancing that? So I guess the question is that is should we produce food or should we do environmental based models? There is another role, and I'm really keen that that is not the case. It is down to each individual business as to what is best for their farm. We we produce food on our farm. We're primary producers that produces stalls, but we also do environmental and the two can go together. And I think that's where it gets exciting because there are possibilities to produce more for less if we embrace tech different methods of doing things. So we actually mentioned similarly that the day that there were a leaf and the whole idea was to get more for less, that's got to be a benefit, whether it's a financial benefit or an environmental benefit. But I think as an industry we need to embrace that and learn from it. And let's see what else can we do on our farms to get better at that, reduce our cost and deliver for both aspects, food and the environment. finally, as the only woman on the candidates lineup, what do you think about the city's diversity is a problem for the industry and to some extent the union. what would you say to people criticize farming and the union over diversity? I mean, what kind of message do you think the union can send out to improve? That's I think this is not just just about women. It's about sexuality. It's about color. It's about age. You know, I've got I've got a daughter is working on a farm full time. I've got a son who works in a farm full time. What? They go to an NFU meeting. No problem. No. Should they go to end, if you may say yes, of course they should. So? I don't want to be doing this job because I'm a woman, because it looks right on a percentage basis. I want to be doing this job because people believe in me and they think I'm capable As a union. We need to be creating the right spaces so that anybody can go into those spaces and show that they're capable of doing the job, not because of who they are, what sex they are, what color they are, or anything like that. It's because they've got ability, ability to do the job. So for me, I want anything to be the safe place where they can go, be themselves and be recognized for their ability and hopefully be the future leaders of the industry. I think some members are concerned about engagement in the NFU. If you were elected, how are you looking to engage with members and potential members in the future? Well, if you are if you ask our dairy farmer members, I've always been available myself, you know, very easily accessible and sometimes I spend my life on the phone, but that goes with the job. But I mean, members should be at the heart of everything we do is the NFU and the counties equally so, and also the sector boards should be sort of creating policy and council. Obviously what other accounts Brexit should be actually making sure that, you know, we are doing exactly what they want and I think we need to get cleverer of making sure council are more involved in creating policy alongside the sector boards. But also I think we need to use different technology than perhaps we've used in the past. I mean, lockdown showed us, for one thing, we couldn't go out and have those face to face meetings. We'd have sector specific meetings or issue specific meetings and we'd get a whole new audience of of NFU members, the ones that perhaps didn't want to get in the car and drive for 2 hours and, you know, but they could pop into their office. They could still be in the polo shirt in the wellies, express their views, we could capture their thoughts and then they could be back at work in 10 minutes. I think, you know, we all have to always do face to face meetings. There's nothing like looking somebody in the eyes of their eyes and asking them what the hell they're doing. But ultimately, you know, we do need to engage with the wider membership. A lot of our members are very, very busy and we have to use that technology. I mean, we had developed in communities at the moment the sectors for specific issues going forward. And I think we need to invest in that and make it very, very easy. Everybody's got a mobile phone or the vast majority of people have mobile phones these days. Let's let's use that technology to gauge members opinions, create policy that we can all get behind. communication has been under fire from the NFU regarding red red tractor. But how are you going to improve the nephew's commitment to Red Tractor? your nephew's commitment to Red tractor? I'm not sure that is the way I'd phrase it. I'll say I think Red Tractor should be responsible for his own communications. What it did with the green farm commitment. As I told the Farmers Guardian a long time ago, it crossed a red line to bring forward something as radical as that without consulting with the to, you know, the tax which exist which are, you know, my dairy board members sit on the red tractor sector board with was brilliant believable and you know that's why we've ended up where we have that's why council quite rightly put forward a resolution and we've now got those two reviews. I think after that resolution was passed, the NFU should have been on a real high. You know, the council had made a decision. We come out of there, we had a way forward. They've got the review on governance and then the broader review, which is still ongoing. But the communications that came out of that was pretty poor. I have to admit that along with all the hands up and say we could have got it, but it could have been stronger, that allowed. People probably don't want those reviews to take place and don't want those reviews to be successful, to create some mischief with the farming press. And so there was a lot of stories out there that actually weren't true, and perhaps in hindsight we could have responded quicker and put them right. But we are where we are. I think going forward we've got to, you know, present those findings to council, presenting them to members, and then hopefully Red Tractor will take those messages on board and actually we think we should end up with something we're proud of, hopefully, but we can all get behind. But I mean, at the moment, you know, members are feeling very, very anti red tractor. You know, I'm not anti assurance schemes. I think if Red Tractor didn't exist, we'd have to create something else. So we'd be forced to create something else. But ultimately we need something that's going to add value and works with our membership and works with the primary producers to add value for our supply chain and ultimately deliver back for our members. government policy obviously is a big issue in the work of the NFU. if you were successful, what is it that you're looking to change or influence in government policy and how going forward? Well, we're going to have a change of some of the office holders, I'm sure, for the NFU, but also I'll be very, very surprised if we don't have a change of government in the next 12 months as well. I met with Daniel Zeichner, who is the shadow Foreign Minister last Wednesday and talking about some of their policies going forward and that, you know, the balance of, you know, the environment and food production, I think, you know, that's a concern for them. And I think we're getting that wrong at the moment. But ultimately, we you know, legislation on various supply chains there is leading the way on that. And that will the side, which is the new law, will get laid before the end of this month. So, you know, dairy fairness and transparency in the dairy supply chain hopefully is is on the way. Know, we've worked extremely hard for a long, long time to get that in place. But once it's in place, it's a template that other sectors and horticulture and the pope and the pig sector are going through the consultations now. So that template hopefully can be rolled out into other sectors quite quickly. It won't take them eight years. It should take a matter of months. Hopefully. And you know, we'd be lobbying whatever the next government is to make sure that they get on and do that as fast as possible. Trade, You know, we're in a we're in a free market will now no longer in Brexit. Our present government wants to sign trade deals with everybody and anybody, but we need to make sure that they work extremely hard to give us access to customers overseas as well. And some farmers will say, well, we don't produce enough food in the UK. Why do you want to export markets? Well, actually markets outside the UK, you know, for dairy are growing and other sectors and actually having markets outside the UK will hopefully keep optimistic market honest because actually we've been too focused on our own, on our own retail market and our own retailers. In the past and that's allowed us to be abused. how do you think you can strike a balance between the importance of food and the importance of the environment, caring forward? I think we've got to the balance is wrong at the moment very, very definitely. And as I said earlier, when we met Daniel Zeichner last week, you know, he's concerned that going forward they won't be able to hit their public procurement ambitions because actually there won't be enough food produced within the UK to be able to supply that market. I would share those concerns as well. You know, farmers are being forced down the environment and the SFI route partly due to lack of margins in whatever sector they're in today. So, you know, but ultimately it's not productive food production. You know, it's, it's, it's actually being paid to do something for the environment. We need to get that balance right and perhaps differently to look at maybe putting limits on how much you can put into the SFI. If you could only put 15, 20% of your farming business into the SFI, ultimately this will be a lot of productive farmland that we're still be producing food. But at the moment farmers, for whatever reason, have this choice. You know, do they struggle on in a business which is struggling potentially with it with lack of margin, or do they take their take the route, go down the SFI route, put the whole farm into it, get a dog and a stick. We put in very little back into the local economy, very little back into local businesses, employing very few people. But ultimately, you know, it might be the best business decision on that day for that firm. So it's it's about getting that balance right. I think we are way off the mark at the moment and I think the consequences going forward could be pretty dire for sustainability of food production within the UK. But, you know, that's a debate we'd be keen to have with where we've been having this government for a long time. But ultimately with the next government to make sure that we get that balance right, you know, and it's not just a binary choice that farmers have to make either food production or environment. It should be both. the line up for the office holders, there could be an argument there. It's not quite as a diverse line up is is the issue is diversity a concern for you, Michael, and how do you think you can improve that? Yeah, I mean, diversity is is a concern. It's a concern for lots of organizations that we don't necessarily mirror our consumers or actually the nation as a whole within that, the representation of the NFU, what we've done recently as the NFU Dairy Board, we invited Claire Whittle and and a number of them who's done enough for scholarship on on diversity and on climate. We call it a very sort of all to end report along to the dairy board theme couldn't make it but Claire came along and it's no use asking me as a sort of bold past middle aged white, you know, man well, what what the issues are. So actually we need to go out there and ask people. And Claire was brilliant. She came along and some of the stories she told us was pretty horrifying. And some of the things that happened to her in her career as a young vet. I mean, we are going to do that again and try and build on some of those findings and find out what are those obstacles to making the industry more diverse, whether that's race, sexuality or whatever happens to be? You know, I have represented the NFU A I respect in the past on Birmingham Pride. That was a really good time. How it's actually where we followed a multicolored man's effects around Birmingham. I think agriculture and farming should be welcoming to everybody, but it's I don't know the issues personally. You know, I think we've got to speak to those people are trying to get into the industry that are already in the industry and work with them going forward. And that's what we tried to start that process with the Dairy Board recently. You know, there's a whole load of issues about, you know, mental health is something else that we didn't used to talk about. We talk about it a lot, a lot more now, but we've got a million miles to go. So it's you know, I hate the word, it's a journey, but it is. And, you know, we've got to sort of, you know, work with those people who may or may not want to coincidentally say find out what it is that they don't like. And, you know, we're all looking for the next farmer to come along. We're all looking for the next generation of people to take over our businesses, whether that's working for us or with us or or working for them, you know, But I just think we have to find out what are the obstacles and have that conversation. But like, you know, a white board man is not I have no experience those things. So we've got to speak to those people that are sort of breaking those glass ceilings and and say, you know, what were the difficulties? How can we make it more inclusive? How can we make it more welcoming? it shouldn't be early days, but it is early days. But, you know, I think we've got a long way to go. But there's a lot more we can do. members have been concerned about NFU Communications the way that the union engages with members both active and non-active. How would you seek to improve that and expand the membership? So firstly, when it comes to members, I think it's a lot to do with the when we get the new salary system in place, we can we can really drive down into into family membership and make sure we're picking up those younger members who are registered as you know, the family owner of the farm, etcetera. So that's one thing. And I think also with the ability with the new NFU communities, the online communities, we can really broaden our engagement through through those online communities with wider membership. And that's not forgetting, you know, keeping up with the face to face. Well, there were already do remembers. So I think there's those two avenues things that we can use, but definitely the communities I see as a real way of a positive way of engaging outside of membership. The social media presence we have is big. Are we saw the Youth Harvest Campaign on Tik-Tok this year, which was really successful and engaging with a different demographic, and that's also engaging with the public. And you know, if we drive that engagement show, what the NFU doing, then that's a good way of increasing our membership and retaining our membership. Staying on the sorts of communication seem one of the aspects that's come up in that field quite recently is the red tractor incidents. I and the way the NFU has handled the red tractor and the green farms commitment and issues how do you think it's a good way to go about rebuilding trust with those members who've been upset about the the red tractor, the way things were handled, and what what would be your vision for future assurance? in terms of communication over Red Tractor, I, I don't think we've done enough to, to show our membership what the sector boards do in terms of working with Red Tractor. So having sat on the cross sector bought for red Tractor for the last four years, you know the massive amount of work we do on behalf of members to, to hold red tractors, feet to the fire in terms of standards, introduction and and moving standards forward is not recognized well enough by the by our membership. And I think and that's that's something we have to do better to engage with. And again, you know, when we get standards come forward, you know, consultations online consultations that we do with our membership should be a good way of engaging. So they again, so they understand what we are doing on their behalf. But the future of Red Tractor, I think, needs to be reassessed. We have to work out what it means for each sector, what what, what the needs are for each sector in terms of in some sense the standards and certainly the green of our commitment is a it's a it's a big example of that. It means more for potentially for the beef sector than it does for the arable sector. And I think we know we need to drive down into that detail. But to do that, we've got to have the opportunity to do it. And we didn't get an opportunity with a grain of farmers commitment. It was all close behind, behind closed doors. There was very little or no engagement with in the you know, in the process of that standard, that standard being worked up. And if I have been, I think I think it would have landed better because we could have increased member engagement through that, through that consultation that the Red Track saw fit not to consult with us with the sector boards, which in my view was a mistake. So we we can go, we need to get back to basics. We need to look at what assurance means. We need to show value, what is value. We need to show what Red Tractor does in terms of, you know, meaning less on farm visits for from government departments, etc.. So, you know that that needs to be something that we can show that to show the difference between that and adding value. And if if green if if standards can add value through retailer supply chains and we need to make sure we work on behalf of members to gain that value. But again, it has to be done with proper engagement and consultation starts that engagement in life. when we think about government policy, is there anything that you would specifically be looking to change or have an influence upon? the general direction of travel in terms of SFI is although, you know, the money out there is welcomed, I still think the policy leans far too far, too in favor in the direction of the environment without recognizing true production enough. I think we need to make sure SFI works better for tenant farmers, for the farmers, for the small family farms. And I, I don't think it does because by attaching so much money to, to taking land out, production ultimately has a bigger impact on small farms, has a bigger impact, massive impact on tenant farms. And I know a lot of the farms are really being left out at the moment. So I think I think that's an area of policy. I think we can have some traction in if we keep engaging with that for and keep working with TFA. And that would be the headline. Start with, you know, other things such as for me, a proper science based registration for crop protection products has to be something that, you know, now having left Europe, we have a real chance to to do properly, and that's something I would really like to see move, move that forward and make sure that we have the, you know, the you know, the tools in the box to be competitive with our with our, you know, the people who who ultimately, if we drop off from production where we're importing grains and food products from around the world to fill that gap. And, you know, we have to be able to shine a light on that as well. obviously SFI and Elms. Everything is striking a balance between food and the environment. How would you go about overcoming the challenges that that that that poses for farmers? the continued engagement with Defra is critical and I think, you know, we do have the ear of different we need to make sure they, they, you know, they're listening to us. But I think the NFU, which is where the NFU comes into its own, the expertise within the staff of the NFU have a real grasp on the demands that the SFI are placing on our on our members. And you know, people will understand, you know, that engagement with that staff through the sector board, through the regional boards, I think is we can really broaden out to help, you know, to help growers and members navigate their way through this sort of more complicated system that's going to fall in front of them quite quickly now that we've we delinking and direct payments are going. So we have to you know, we have the resources, we have to make the best use of those resources. So again, I go back to the online engagement, the communities where you can have a really good wide ranging impact with members in terms of what work demands, how demanding it is to get into into the schemes like the SFI and what it means for their businesses as well. And that can be said for, for for other policy areas like net zero, etc., etc. because they all feed into the same area. So you know, use your webinars properly like we did with the, with the fertilizer crisis and urea and all those, you know, increasing that engagement through webinars and the communities, I think we can really help our members get over these quite significant hurdles. I think when it comes down to SFI diversity is a is a big topic at the moment in agriculture. And I mean, and when we look at the NFU, the candidate list at the moment, there's just just one woman in there, Rachel's in there. what can be done about diversity, do you think, in the NFU and the wider, wider farming? What what can improve that? well well, I don't think setting targets that potentially has that has the right effect. I think in engaging with with the membership and that diversity that is already in our membership, making sure that we we're proactive in pushing more women into, into roles if they want to do it exactly is fine, but they have to be comfortable within doing it. And they have to also have to be at up to the task of doing it as well. So I you know, and that's that's for that. And you say the same about I might as well, you know, anyone who fulfills these roles after have to be must be the right person for the right job. So I think that that is still key. if we make sure we're always increasing in our organization and professional manner, then I would look to be more businesslike, more professional. Then we will engage with with, with, with different with different people and different demographics and and and increase our diversity. We are seeing more women coming to NFU Council and being elected. But there are other ways of working for the NFU as a member. So there's, there's appointed positions on sector boards is regional appointees now. So, you know, it's not it's not the person who's the most electable now. It's sometimes it's more about the person who's more skilled. And you know, that often brings quieter people potentially to the fore, people who don't think they can go through electoral process. And so those are pointy shifts are really key for, in my view, for increasing diversity. And that's something we need to build on. And I think we I think we are building on actually, because if you if you do look at the changing demographics and the change in personnel on some of the sector boards and it is is changing and it is working because we are becoming more business like, but I still think there's room for improvement. Obviously we've heard from a lot of members who were concerned about NFU Communications and the engagement with members both active and non-active. How are you looking to improve that and to possibly expand the membership if you're elected? Communications is is a subject, as you say, that's mentioned quite a lot. I actually in a roundabout way looked at communications for my hustings presentation in the first bit I was looking at education to get the farming message, the food production message across to the younger audience, the education strategy that we already run and that I would probably like to expand would be useful from that point of view when it's looking at the the membership and the the wider community, we have to look into the new review that we've just completed. We're going to go ahead with setting up what's called communities for various subjects and issues that concern members. And via those online sessions, we can hopefully communicate a lot better with a lot wider range of of the membership, perhaps some people who probably wouldn't come out to a meeting even. And we have we have evidence of this because during COVID we did actually get a lot of a lot of younger people even joining in meetings that I don't think we'd seen before face to face. So I think they'll be this new system I think will work very well, actually. Now, the area of red Tractor, which has been very contentious in the past few weeks, a few a good few farmers have criticized, again, the communication aspects of it and nephew's handling of the red trucks, green farms commitment. And how do you how would you go about rebuilding trust with members who've felt a little bit disappointed by the red tractor events? And what what would you see as your vision for Farm Assurance and Red Tractor going forward? We certainly need to see a level of change in the way the assurance scheme is operated. We would like to see a little bit more, probably a little bit more trust come from the operator down to the farmer it would be worthwhile. I think everyone perhaps just taking a little a little step back, perhaps from the from the forefront of jumping at the people who represent them, such as myself, perhaps until we get this review completed, don't really want to predict too much that may or may not come out of that. But when we see what does come out of that, I'm pretty sure we can work with the results of that and then get back to members too, so that they can then put in their their ideas and their comments so that we can all move forward together into a new range of of modern farm assurance set for the industry going forward. in terms of government policy, is there anything you would be looking to change, and if so, how is that? That's a fairly broad question, I suppose. we do need to be a bit wary that the new, relatively new, let's say, sustainable farming incentive doesn't lead to mass exodus of food production. on one hand, yes, we need some support to continue farming in most cases, but on the other hand, if if everyone rushes in and grabs all the money now, as it were, and stops producing food, then we could see some we could sadly see some empty shelves or some shelves lacking British food. Let's say the chances are those retailers will find the food somewhere, but it won't be ours. how would you go about sort of striking the right balance between food and environment what are the main challenges do you think that is coming from from this need now to have a, well, a balance, if not more leaning towards the environment? Absolutely. Very, very similarly, somewhat related to the previous question, as you suggest, we've certainly got to work hand in hand with the environment and food production. And equally by doing that, hopefully we shall have a useful effect on our on all of our carbon footprints and our effects on the environment from that point of view. As I previously said, we don't want to go away from food production. Farmers are here to produce food and most of them want to continue doing that. However, it is vital that we do look after our surroundings, our environment, and have it so that it's still there for our sons, daughters and generations to come diversity is a key topic in agriculture at the moment, and obviously the candidate lineup is not as diverse as some in the sector would want. what do you think this says about the NFU? What kind of message you think this sends out and what would you what do you think then, if you could do to improve this? I suspect you probably attended the Oxford Farming Conference as well, which shows that sort of diversity is its main thing this year. Yeah, I, I'm not so convinced that that the line up this year is diversified. I mean we've got 2 to 10 farmers from the north as you as you're probably well aware and one one dairy farmer and myself as a mixed from I say from from the farming point of view I would suggest we're we're reasonably well placed across the industry actually. But yeah, it would be certainly comes along with the education message that I was putting across. We do need to bring in more new blood and more ideas into the industry to see us into the future and continuing to produce food and look after our environment around us as we go forward. Thank you to all of the candidates for talking to us and we'll know the results of the elections at the NFU conference on the 21st. That's it for this week's Farmers Guardian podcast. Thank you very much for listening and goodbye for now.